Epic Win or Epic Fail - J1/V1

Started Sep 21, 2011 | Discussions
Vronsky Junior Member • Posts: 29
Too expensive and pointless

I don’t see why anyone would buy Nikon’s new mirrorless cameras. They cost as much as the D3100 and D5100 and it doesn’t seem possible they will produce better pictures. They are small and fast, but the D3100 and D5100 are themselves fairly small and fast. Anyone who finds DSLRs too big won’t be willing to carry multiple lenses. This entire category of mirrorless cameras seems to be without much point. They aren’t cheaper and people who don’t want small cameras are unlikely to want to change lenses.

alfredo_tomato
alfredo_tomato Veteran Member • Posts: 4,221
Re: Success -- Epic Win or Epic Fail - J1/V1

I am not its target audience, and I guess most here are not its target audience. I'm OK with that.

There was a glitch when I first tried posting a reply. So, I will try again.

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Miwok
Miwok Contributing Member • Posts: 770
Re: Nikon need a mulligan

Ilkka Nissilä wrote:

The shooting will begin before you even trigger the button so you can record something you actually "missed".

WoWoWoW!! What else?

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Raoul Duke Regular Member • Posts: 105
Re: Too expensive and pointless

Agree, too expensive for the P&S crowd who want to upgrade, plus the existing upgrade route is already very easy. The Auto mode on the entry DSLR's work really well. By looking at the zoom, you'll still need a bag to carry it in, you might as well have the small DSLR's. The sensor is too small to catch the enthusiast shooter market... I would rather get an established line of cameras such as a PEN or G or NEX camera rather than buy something that seems to have little future. Fail, and I'm a Nikon Fanboy. The should have made the FF Digital F2....
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Klimt z Regular Member • Posts: 338
Re: Too expensive and pointless

Too expensive, perhaps. But why impute your needs on everyone else. I have DSLRs like you mention, which sit on the shelf because I grab a smaller camera on my way out the door. Sometimes out with people or on the boat I even use the phone cam. Sometimes, as Nikon and Kodak well know the picture is a chronicle or a journal and sometimes it might also be a serious expression. For example, I have never carried a tripod around and I never would but tripod people eventually get good shots. It won't however be in a slot canyon or on a trail in Yosemite. As far as lugging a bag of lenses, that is definitely to be avoided at all costs. However if I know I am going out into an Eagle habitat I would love to put on a 600mm equivalent lens that doesn't feel like a brick or two flopping around on my neck during the hike in.

The stated target market is not you or even me. It is about people who have been carrying their cameras or phones everywhere and taking shots of everybody and everything along the way and sharing them and having fun sending pics to the boyfriend back home while they are suffering on vacation with their parents. They are into it and now they are going out in the world and would like to keep shooting but certainly not with anything much bigger than a pack of cigarettes. Its a great market and it is smart to cultivate it.

As far as price, the bodies are alloy and some of the specs are as good or better than pro level, but alas, times are not good.
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Red G8R
Red G8R Senior Member • Posts: 1,801
Re: Too expensive and pointless

I think Sony has a hit with the NEX 7 but I had to wait and see what Nikon had to offer. Now I'm convinced that Sony will win my vote. The response time and AF speed of the V1 are impressive, but so far the IQ from samples are not.
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Fazal Majid
Fazal Majid Senior Member • Posts: 1,728
Epic Fail, clearly

Small noisy sensor with excess NR visible even at base ISO, combined with slow lenses, means IQ will probably be in compact territory. Not compact enough to make a difference.

Now clearly I am not in the target market (but my needs are covered by a Fuji X100). I am planning on getting a large-sensor compact for my wife, and currently my choice is the Panasonic GF3X with the pancake zoom, failing that the Olympus E-PM1 with the Panasonic pancake zoom.

Nikon may have been trying not to cannibalize DSLR sales with the ! system, but the end result will be that Sony and m43 will do it for them.
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buda1065 New Member • Posts: 10
Re: Epic Win or Epic Fail - J1/V1

Small, APS-C sensor 16-20mp, EVF, and Nikon mount (with or without adapter),1080p/60 video--that would've done it for them.

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Andrew Butterfield Senior Member • Posts: 2,470
I'm out

So you're a salesman persuading Mr Average to upgrade from, say, a Nikon Coolpix to a Nikon J1, what do you tell them? What do they get for the price of an expensive SLR?

Because they'll see through all the high-speed stuff as a gimmick they can already get on a £175 Casio.

So what else? Nice blurry backgrounds? That's why people buy SLRs isn't it? Isn't that the only difference Mr Average can discern between an SLR photograph and a cheap compact? Sorry, no blurry backgrounds.

So what else? A pocketful of expensive lenses just to get the same zoom range as a Nikon S9100 that slips in your pocket? Why?

These new Nikon cameras will no doubt be well built, reliable and take perfectly good photos. Like any decent compact these days. Perhaps even a little bit better, not that Mr Average will be able to tell the difference when he views the photos on his iPad.

To me, they don't offer anything extra over a decent compact, apart from expense (and future expense) to Mr Average.

I don't want Nikon to fail with this system, but if this was Dragon's Den, I know what I'd be saying.

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antoineb Veteran Member • Posts: 6,650
Epic failure I think

I own a D7000 and some good glass, and I think the J1 / V1 is going to prove a failure:

  • sensor is tiny so no DOF play and limited IQ. simpler to use an iPhone or a compact camera for most uses, the available samples so far show this clearly. Compacts will offer more compositional flexibility thanks to their zoom

  • if one wants better IQ and is OK with more complexity (interchangeable lenses) then m43 or APS-C mirrorless offer that better IQ.

  • lenses on the Nikons are ridiculously big for such a tiny sensor and slow lenses. What was Nikon thinking?

  • none of these cameras has decent manual controls, why?

  • whatever the actual AF performance (vs the claims) it's pretty clear that w Panasonic achieving AF times of 0.1-0.2s well it's difficult or potentially impossible to go faster. I suspect nikon used both PDAF and CDAF simply because their CDAF engine is very poor (as anyone who has compared a Nikon compact AF performance to a Panasonic compact AF performance, can witness - or as anyone who has tried a Nikon DSLR in CDAF mode can witness)

So as far as I'm concerned:

  • these J1 and V1 cameras are not for normal shooters: these are much better served by compact cameras which offer comparable DOF control, in a smaller package. Or they can use their iPhone, which is even smaller and always with you

  • they are not for more enthusiast shooters: these are better served by m43 or APS-C mirrorless, which offer bodies of comparable size or even a bit smaller, AF performance at least as good, ditto for video, AND lenses that are largely smaller despite covering a bigger sensor. Oh, and they offer real manual controls

  • they are not for enthusiast shooters

So my bet is this will be a failure. Unless Nikon come up with decent (fast) glass, more compact glass, and a higher-end model with manual controls, and flash.

My bet is this is a failure, but I'm of course not wishing Nikon to fail.

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markprincess Regular Member • Posts: 115
Re: Epic Win or Epic Fail - J1/V1

Hyu wrote:

it will support my D7000 as more lifestyle camera as I rarely bother carrying all the huge lenses with me.

I'm seeing that phrase being used more often and predict the forums will be clogged with posts from people asking questions such as, "what's a good walkabout lens for my lifestyle camera?".

SeeRoy Senior Member • Posts: 1,666
Re: EPIC! Win.

BobSC wrote:

Am I the only one who gets it?

This is Nikon. They release a new lens mount about once a generation. Don't think about these cameras in terms of what they can do today. They don't need these cameras to be successful today. They need to succeed over a 20 to 50 year life cycle.

You think the market environment for consumer durables today is comparable to that prevailing 50 years ago?

What will the sensors and the lenses be like in 5 years?

Dunno. Do you?

I just measured. The J1 body is about the size of my S95. Very small.

Ah, a compelling reason to buy one.

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Trying...

BobSC Veteran Member • Posts: 4,404
Re: EPIC! Win.

SeeRoy wrote:

BobSC wrote:

Am I the only one who gets it?

This is Nikon. They release a new lens mount about once a generation. Don't think about these cameras in terms of what they can do today. They don't need these cameras to be successful today. They need to succeed over a 20 to 50 year life cycle.

You think the market environment for consumer durables today is comparable to that prevailing 50 years ago?

I think the mindset inside Japanese corporations is the same. I think they don't necessarily care if it's the best today. Like the Toyota Corrola in the 70's.

Consider the Coolpix 100, just a little over 10 years ago. 512×480 with a fixed f/4 lens.

zr3rs Forum Member • Posts: 53
Re: Epic Win or Epic Fail - J1/V1

buda1065 wrote:

Small, APS-C sensor 16-20mp, EVF, and Nikon mount (with or without adapter),1080p/60 video--that would've done it for them.

Everybody seems to think that they should have released this hypothetical camera. Let me ask a few questions:

How much MORE would you be willing to pay for the new camera compared to a D5100? Or how much more are you willing to pay for 60p, EVF, 250g less and a depth reduced by 3 cm? Because if Nikon is still earning the same amount of money on the new one, these developments need to be paid. An E-like mount would reduce size, but you need to develop a new set of lenses. Or would you be satisfied if the D5200 had 60p and an EVF?

What are the real advantages of the EVF that you need? You will definitely pay a price in terms of power consumption. Is it size (without mirror)? Is it silent shutter (does not need EVF)? Is it PDAF in live view (does not need EVF)? Is it manufacturing cost (but development needs to be paid as well)?

To be clear: I see a bright future in mirrorless cameras, but what exactly is it functionally that you are missing in the current DSLRs that would be immediately imporoved in a mirrorless?

Gunzorro Senior Member • Posts: 1,889
"1" Epic Fail

I agree with antoine: epic fail.

Get your wife a nice Oly or Panasonic M3/4 camera. Better IQ quality, easy to use, more flexible, and less expensive overall.

JackM
JackM Veteran Member • Posts: 8,582
Bulkiest, most expensive point-n-shoot ever.

That sums it up for me, after seeing the samples.

When I don't care about having huge DOF, I'll take something that fits in my pocket.

Next!

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bryanbrun Contributing Member • Posts: 772
Re: "1" Epic Fail

Gunzorro wrote:

I agree with antoine: epic fail.

Get your wife a nice Oly or Panasonic M3/4 camera. Better IQ quality, easy to use, more flexible, and less expensive overall.

I agree with Gunzorro.

The Nikon J1/V1 can't produce the smallest amount of background blur with the kit lens.

I'm not asking for full frame obliteration of the background, just the smallest of amount of blur for subject isolation. That is one of the biggest reasons people buy DSLRs.

Camp Freddy
Camp Freddy Senior Member • Posts: 1,727
Epic Fail - J1/

Not impressed with the IQ so far and the very deep DOF on the slow zooms.

Now we are talking about a $1500 usd system with the promised fast lenses to be as good in IQ as the g12 and XZ1.

Remember all those nikon users who slated FT mFT for a relatively deeper DOF per f stop? Where are they now? The shots are nice and sharp because EVERYTHING is in focus.

It may AF faster, but then you will not have as good images and your shutter speed will be down given the rather rubbish ISO performance.

Get out of jail on RAW? Not this time guys. Overpriced fail.
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HB 101 Regular Member • Posts: 231
Re: Epic Fail - J1/

Yep, epic fail.

Or, one can argue, as a success as Nikon Pronea.

irish-george Senior Member • Posts: 1,464
just another...

Nikon swing and a miss. I AM amazed at how their marketing department keeps their jobs after SO MANY mis-steps. Seems like they are trying to take the Steve Jobs approach to marketing (the customer has no idea what he wants so we'll tell him what he wants) with a far, far lower success ratio. Nikon: try listening to your customers -- that works for most companies.

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