Price this image

Started Sep 19, 2011 | Discussions
sam photo Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: Price this image

...what exactly is the difference if he is a an amateur or pro?!...the image has value to the club, just what that value is will be determined through negotitations for the use of the image...Daba , you seem to be one of these WFH guys that has sold yourself short and don't really understand usage...please note that the only time large numbers were being mentioned is because the op originaly mentioned full rights...

ABA DABA Veteran Member • Posts: 3,084
Re: Price this image

OK he says he is a pro, If a pro for the past 8 years he should have some kind of idea what to charge, where to go to get an idea, not on this forum.
waits 7 months to contact the proposed customer, haven't had an answer as yet.

If any pro on this forum ran his/her business that way, they wouldn't last very long.

Read between the lines of the OP posts, it was a phishing expedition to get an idea what to charge. In my opinion he should contact one of the stock agencys and see if there is interest.

To the OP, 8 years in the business and you get 200/300 per commisioned shoot holy cow why not give it away in the first place. That is chump change,beer money, whatever. And for your info I'm still around after retiring some 30 years. And I am still called to do PJ work for a few magazines.

Here's a thought, what did your vacation cost you,OP?? Use that cost as a price for your shot.
Good gracious what a joke.
--
ABA DABA

Michael Firstlight Veteran Member • Posts: 3,337
Re: Price this image

I am contemplating a new model for estimating what to charge clients like this for images in the future. I think most photographers suffer from lack of business skills for things like this. I don't do this kind of photography work often - just now and then, but I've listened to so much half-baked advice and traditional formulas and none of them are really based on a sensible client-centric model.

The solution recently dawned on me - why not price images based on client value estimates the same as some of us here do for the business cases we produce for our day-jobs? I write and calculate business cases every week as part of my main profession (after more than 35 years my photography is still a side business).

Stick with me a moment. The is no product whose value cannot be articulated with a business case. I tend to agree with some folks that our years of training, skill, investment , cost of whatever really has no bearing on the value of an image and what to charge - I think that these are very archaic business models.

Rather, I think we producers need to do more business homework to build the business case as the what potential value a client can realize by the use of an image set the licensing options accordingly. For my corporate business cases I tend to offer a strong ratio of return on investment for the products I deliver - upwards between 10:1 to 20:1 of investment to value. If you can articulate that an investment of $1 using your product will return $15 in increased revenue for your client, then you can set a fair market price and your client wil be happy to pay for it. How do you do this? it takes a little skill in converting certain metrics to value.

Using this method you can sell the client on the value proposition and I have found that my other business clients come back to me for more product because they do realize the benefits and returning clients are far more valuable in the long run than
one-off transactions.

When I've been stumped in formulating values I have sometimes worked with the client to figure a base set of metrics - even if only partial with some guessed. In this respect you become a partner with your client to ensure your client's success and that is never lost on the client. The result calculations can be scaled based on projected value from usage and the licensing options stepped accordingly.

I am still thinking through this model which is historically a tried and true method for general business at large. The trick is capturing a useful set of client metrics to estimate with - but that is done regularly by marketing firms - so we ought to be to develop the skills and methods to do the same.

I hope some others understand what I've just proposed; I've not really heard any folks in our field propose such an approach and I think it is viable.

Regards,
Mike

 Michael Firstlight's gear list:Michael Firstlight's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm f/2.8G IF-ED VR Sigma 10-20mm F3.5 EX DC HSM +19 more
Ashley Morrison Photography Contributing Member • Posts: 814
Re: Price this image

Michael Firstlight wrote:

I hope some others understand what I've just proposed; I've not really heard any folks in our field propose such an approach and I think it is viable.

Regards,
Mike

One doesn't really need to re-invent the wheel Mike - just follow the guidelines set out by the various professional associations.

I'm based in the UK, so for me that means the Association of Photographers (AOP) - who's guidelines can be found in their book Beyond the Lens , which anyone can buy & read.

http://beyond-the-lens.the-aop.org - Chapter 5: "The guidelines shown on the following pages are for use where the photographer has issued, or is issuing, a licence and were produced as a result of discussions between art buyers, photographers and photographers’ agents. These are not recommendations, but are provided as guidelines for negotiation based on current trade practice."

Using the BUR (Base Usage Rate) pricing system - which I highly recommend and have written about on my blog: http://ashleymorrisonphotography.wordpress.com/2010/07/29/base-usage-rate
--
Cheers,
Ashley.
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com

sam photo Contributing Member • Posts: 802
Re: Price this image

...you are all over the place in your commentary and frankly a lot of it just makes no sense...again, what difference does it make regarding the use of this image where he got it or how? ...the value to the proposed client will be the same regardless...

...the guy came here looking for pricing advice, it seems you are in the camp that he should be happy to get his 80 euros because he just happened to be there and snapped an image...
...now you are attacking his credibility because of his fees?!...

...the whole point to this excercise if you haven't noticed is to educate the community on various pricing structures...Ashley has laid out a clear methodology and has been very helpful in providing the op with pertinent information...hopefully this will help in the future for others in similar situations...
...clearly this is not the case for you...

Ashley Morrison Photography Contributing Member • Posts: 814
Re: Price this image

ABA DABA wrote:

In my opinion he should contact one of the stock agencys and see if there is interest.

Why ? - when he knows who the person and/or company is, that are actually interested in using his image.

And for your info I'm still around after retiring some 30 years. And I am still called to do PJ work for a few magazines.

LOL.

Here's a thought, what did your vacation cost you,OP?? Use that cost as a price for your shot.

Yes, one would need to take part of that cost into account - when quoting a fee for the minimum amount, for them to use of your image - or all of that into account, if that was the only reason one when there.
--
Cheers,
Ashley.
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com

Ashley Morrison Photography Contributing Member • Posts: 814
Re: Price this image

ABA DABA wrote:

.. after retiring some 30 years.

Just so you know: a few after you retired, the Designs & Patents Act 1988 was passed - whereby the copyright in images is vested with the author who licences the work to their client to enable them to publish the work for the purposes of the commission.

MartynD2oo
OP MartynD2oo Senior Member • Posts: 1,720
Re: Price this image

ABA DABA wrote:

OK he says he is a pro, If a pro for the past 8 years he should have some kind of idea what to charge, where to go to get an idea, not on this forum.
waits 7 months to contact the proposed customer, haven't had an answer as yet.

If any pro on this forum ran his/her business that way, they wouldn't last very long.

Read between the lines of the OP posts, it was a phishing expedition to get an idea what to charge. In my opinion he should contact one of the stock agencys and see if there is interest.

To the OP, 8 years in the business and you get 200/300 per commisioned shoot holy cow why not give it away in the first place. That is chump change,beer money, whatever. And for your info I'm still around after retiring some 30 years. And I am still called to do PJ work for a few magazines.

Here's a thought, what did your vacation cost you,OP?? Use that cost as a price for your shot.
Good gracious what a joke.
--
ABA DABA

Where did I say I was a Pro? Oh wait..I didn´t, all I said was I have been selling images for 8 years I never said that it was my profession. I am a photographer and yes I do get paid for some of my work but I'm not a full-time pro. Yes you are right it is beer money cos my other businesses provide me with a more than comfortable living. Anyway it´s niether here or there what I am I just asked for some simple advice about one image.

 MartynD2oo's gear list:MartynD2oo's gear list
Nikon D3 Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24mm f/1.4G ED +4 more
MartynD2oo
OP MartynD2oo Senior Member • Posts: 1,720
Re: Price this image

Ashley Morrison Photography wrote:

ABA DABA wrote:

.. after retiring some 30 years.

Just so you know: a few after you retired, the Designs & Patents Act 1988 was passed - whereby the copyright in images is vested with the author who licences the work to their client to enable them to publish the work for the purposes of the commission.

Thanks for all the advice Ashley, you´ve been a great help and I love your work! I have recently been working on a Real Estate project (and I must have got lucky again because my client bought my work).

 MartynD2oo's gear list:MartynD2oo's gear list
Nikon D3 Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24mm f/1.4G ED +4 more
ABA DABA Veteran Member • Posts: 3,084
Re: Price this image

yup!!! and thats what you got advice.
your interiors are very nice, don't get excited, not patronizing you.
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ABA DABA

Michael Firstlight Veteran Member • Posts: 3,337
Re: Price this image

I don't dispute what you've outlined in your blog - its been sort of the blanket standard - and blanket is the operative word here. What is doesn't take into account is what the market will bear on a client-specific basis. I've sold images to large corporations where the ROI for the use was magnitudes larger than for the fundraising brochure for a private school. Without factoring the image-to-value ratio for a given client I don't see how one can be market and customer-driven. Maybe the answer lies in the basic approach you've outlined adjusted with an image-to-value

metric. The way its done on average, by itself seems to be a one-size-fit-all approach which I feel is a photographer-centric, not a market-centric approach.

Thanks for the links and blog - its a very good reference.

Regards,
Mike

 Michael Firstlight's gear list:Michael Firstlight's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm f/2.8G IF-ED VR Sigma 10-20mm F3.5 EX DC HSM +19 more
Ashley Morrison Photography Contributing Member • Posts: 814
Re: Price this image

Michael Firstlight wrote:

I've sold images to large corporations where the ROI for the use was magnitudes larger than for the fundraising brochure for a private school.

Question: what all did the large corporations use your images for ?

Was it just for them to use your images in a single brochure (Media use), for a few months (Period of use), in one county or state (Territory of use) - just like the private school ?

If not, then naturally the fee should be different, due to them requiring more use of your images - even though the images may be the same and/or what it costs you to produce was the same.

So differently not a one-size-fit-all - I can assure you of that - quite the opposite in fact.
--
Cheers,
Ashley.
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com

Ashley Morrison Photography Contributing Member • Posts: 814
Re: Price this image

To put some meat on the bones - in the example I posted on my blog (where I'm quoting a fee before the images have been produced) - if the client (Ace Company Ltd) had said they only wanted to use the images in 2 media (Brochures & Magazine ads) for 1 year in the UK & Ireland - then the fee I would have quoted would have been: 6 x £210.00 = £1,200.00 i.e. my BUR.

If on the other hand, they had said they wanted to use the images for Billboards, Brochures, Direct Mail, Magazine ads, Newspaper ads and the Worldwide web for 5 years throughout Europe - then the fee I would have quoted would have been: 6 x £3150.00 = £18,900.00.

Why ?

Well if you look at what they will be spending on buying media space in each of the above examples, then to will start to release that the fee I'm quoting is in line with what they are about to spend on that.

And because there are more than 100 different ways to shoot any subject i.e. all images are not the same - and as the images have not yet been produced, because I'm only quoting at this stage - then it's their budget that will ultimately determine what I can afford to do.

So in other words: give me a budget of £18K to play with, as opposed to £1.2K - and I will provide them with a very different set of images for them to use - to meet their needs.

It's therefore up to them to make the call - as they are the one's who are wanting to use the images... not me.

I will just be providing them with the best that I can within their budget.

But here's the thing: if they say they only want to use the images for their Brochures & Magazine ads for 1 year in the UK & Ireland - and we agree on a fee of £1200 for that - and then after they see the final images, they say they now want to use the images a lot more, then the fee will go up.

Why ?

Because they are now asking for more i.e. additional use of my images.

So there is often a real incentive for me to go the extra mile i.e. to make them 'want to use' my images more.

Which is a win, win situation for everyone, if I succeed - because they get more and I get more - which is only fair.

And that's where the AOP's percentage guideline figures come into play - to help you determine what the additional usage fee should be.

JimP101 Regular Member • Posts: 101
Re: Price this image

I rarely do commercial work of the kind you are describing so I have found some of these posts very illuminating. I do have my old copy of 'Beyond the lens' from about 1998, so perhaps I should get an updated version and have a look. Many thanks.

Jim

Ashley Morrison Photography Contributing Member • Posts: 814
Re: Price this image

JimP101 wrote:

I do have my old copy of 'Beyond the lens' from about 1998, so perhaps I should get an updated version and have a look.

You probably only need to buy & download Chapter 5, Jim.

Then, if you use a spread sheet, you should be able to quickly calculate what the fee should be for the use of your images* - in a logically way - so you have that information in front of you, when you being to talk to the client and negotiate the fee.

Beats plucking numbers out of the air, that's for sure - and it will therefore give you confidence, as you know the fees you are quoting are in-line with current trade practices .

(Note: your images* - based on your production costs, rather than someone else's).
--
Cheers,
Ashley.
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com

JulesJ
JulesJ Forum Pro • Posts: 45,338
Re: Price this image

awphoto wrote:

MartynD2oo wrote:

Hi folks

The owner of this beach club is asking how much I will charge them to use this image in future publicity. The original image is 12mp taken with D3 and 14-24. I was guessing at around €80 for full rights, is that about right?

Bit unsure how to deal with this as normally I work for complete sessions on DVDs.

Thanks in advance for the help.

http://500px.com/photo/2052301

-- hide signature --

"FULL RIGHTS"?? try around 8000 minimum rather than 80.

8000 what, snails legs? if you are talking $s, which cloud are you living on?

get proper information from them on what usage they actually want.

FULL RIGHTS is pretty meaningless and not usually something that they would require.

If you think about it, "full rights" could mean they could sell it as prints, use it for international advertising, use it on billboards, everything in fact.

Do you not think it is worth a bit more than 80 euros ??

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Michael Firstlight Veteran Member • Posts: 3,337
Re: Price this image

Interesting, where is a good place to download that book?

Regards,
Mike

 Michael Firstlight's gear list:Michael Firstlight's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm f/2.8G IF-ED VR Sigma 10-20mm F3.5 EX DC HSM +19 more
JimP101 Regular Member • Posts: 101
Re: Price this image

Ashley Morrison Photography wrote:

JimP101 wrote:

I do have my old copy of 'Beyond the lens' from about 1998, so perhaps I should get an updated version and have a look.

You probably only need to buy & download Chapter 5, Jim.

Then, if you use a spread sheet, you should be able to quickly calculate what the fee should be for the use of your images* - in a logically way - so you have that information in front of you, when you being to talk to the client and negotiate the fee.

Beats plucking numbers out of the air, that's for sure - and it will therefore give you confidence, as you know the fees you are quoting are in-line with current trade practices .

(Note: your images* - based on your production costs, rather than someone else's).
--
Cheers,
Ashley.
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com

Thank for that info!

Jim

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