SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

Started Jul 4, 2011 | Discussions
Rytterfalk Veteran Member • Posts: 4,101
SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

I'm now back with my Chinese family and I've posted three RAW packs so far on my website. More to come. Please feel free to post your own versions.

I noticed a few things about the SD1 and SPP5. On a Mac, to get "real" colors from SPP you need to save as AppleRGB gamma 1.8 . Only way right now to get consistency when playing on the Mac.

The new Zero sharpening is -2.0 , if you shot with a perfectly sharp lens this setting will always looks best! I think Sigma needs to rework how and possibly when they apply sharpening. (before or after applying noise reduction) If you need extra sharpening, do that in Photoshop or the like. (LM, your cat looks waaaay over sharpened,

X3 Fill Light looks better and works better with SD1 files. =

Missing the old foveon sharpness and 3D feeling? It's ALL about the lens! In my travel case I have 18-50 and on the SD15 it was my sharpest overall lens, now on the SD1 it's only perfectly 3D sharp around center. Please see SDIM1547 from RAW pack 2 and have a look at the stairway leading up to the skyroad. Play with sharpness and see for yourself.

http://www.rytterfalk.com/2011/07/03/2318/

http://www.rytterfalk.com/2011/07/03/sd1-exposure-raw-pack-2/

http://www.rytterfalk.com/2011/06/26/sd1-family-raw-pack-1/

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Carl @ Rytterfalk.com (Göteborg, Sweden)
http://www.rytterfalk.com
Proud Foveon user. Using Sigma SD and DP cameras.

brittonx
brittonx Senior Member • Posts: 2,445
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

Carl,

I wonder if the high-sharpening is an issue only on Mac SPP? If I set any of the RAWs (yours or others) they seem way too soft on my Windows machine, they start looking more tile those soft Bayer images.

I hope Sigma does not lower the sharpening as it is set on the Windows version. Maybe a better option would be to have a wider range (-3 ~ +3 perhaps)?
--
--Britton
http://photo.brittonrobbins.com/

 brittonx's gear list:brittonx's gear list
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OP Rytterfalk Veteran Member • Posts: 4,101
100% crop example of -2.0 sharpening..

I have no idea about the windows version but this is a 100% crop with all my settings included.. Also note that it's a ISO200 shot and that noise reduction is set to a minimum. To my eye, this is the perfect start from where "real" sharpening can be applied from PS. Nik Sharpener pro or just normal Smart Sharpen makes these images look so much better.

Sorry for Big image. PNG.

brittonx wrote:

Carl,

I wonder if the high-sharpening is an issue only on Mac SPP? If I set any of the RAWs (yours or others) they seem way too soft on my Windows machine, they start looking more tile those soft Bayer images.

I hope Sigma does not lower the sharpening as it is set on the Windows version. Maybe a better option would be to have a wider range (-3 ~ +3 perhaps)?
--
--Britton
http://photo.brittonrobbins.com/

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Carl @ Rytterfalk.com (Göteborg, Sweden)
http://www.rytterfalk.com
Proud Foveon user. Using Sigma SD and DP cameras.

AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 60,428
Re: 100% crop example of -2.0 sharpening..

On PC versions of SPP, I found -0.6 to be about zero for sharpness and perfect for upsizing and PP, with the 3.7 and 4.6Mp cameras anyway ..

RAW converter writers seem to change algorithms between cameras (such as Capture one and Lightroom adding differing levels of Hidden NR depending on the camera) so -0.6 maybe neutral sharpening for an SD9, DP1 or SD15 but could be totally different for the SD1

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A Problem is only the pessimistic way of looking at a challenge

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Ed Herdman Regular Member • Posts: 140
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

Made the jump, installed SPP. Some random ramblings follow. But first off, thanks for the high quality RAW pack, it's very helpful.

(SPP is sorting by filenames, so I'll say the "barn pack" comes first, then the "blue overpass," and finally the group that includes "the red tower," and the final image being "opposing buildings.")

Software first: Well, this is distracting. Under the Review window (interesting that it's launched as a new window, even though it's not a new application instance or process, so you can switch back to SPP - Canon DPP on the other hand doesn't have a separate window for its own photo review) I see the effects of the SPP software's automatic color guesses. Sometimes a hit and sometimes a huge miss. Photo 2 started out overexposed but the highlights didn't blow out badly, and SPP seems able to compensate for that pretty well without my doing anything. On the other hand, photo 4's automatic color tweaking is jarring, though perhaps (like image 3) it's a better example of the automatic color tweaking reducing a reddish (and possibly the infamous purple everybody speaks about) hue in the images. On Photo 3, I found I was able to get a somewhat better balance simply by using the eyedropper adjustment on a gray patch of the subject's shirt (near his right shoulder) - adjustment 8 Cyan, 10 Yellow (8C 10Y). Another (more pink, possibly better overall) from the white patch on his left shoulder closest to the upper arm (10C 5Y) - through multiple images, clicking a white patch seems the best bet, unlike clicking a gray point as on Canon. Similar enough to DPP otherwise. The automatically tweaked pictures are usually, but not always, a dramatic improvement over the X3F versions, but still far away from simply finding a white patch and clicking it.

Oh, the UI is horrendous overall. I have a 26" monitor, at "only" 1920x1200 (perfect for many uses actually) and I can't read the labels on the buttons. Light gray on dark gray...what IDIOT designed that? I already had a slight headache going into this (gone now though!), and I do not appreciate the lack of consideration for my eyesight. Another consideration: When selecting the eyedropper tool (under adjustments), you click the circle to activate it, and the circle turns from dark gray to a light gray. While the world might not be in black and white but shades of gray, they are terrible for me as a visual cue. All the more infuriating, they use a somewhat washed-out yellow/orange color to light up the buttons up top - why not make them yellow when activated? (I wonder if color bleedthrough or pollution from too-colorful UI elements was some kind of consideration, but it seems pretty unlikely - simple poor design choices seem to be the culprit.) Then there's the Show / Hide options in the Review window's Adjustments menu: Instead of the traditional, universally understood checkmark, it instead changes the wording from Show to Hide, and of course you need to do a negation in your head to realize that the state of the object is the reverse of what the menu item is a command for - something I have always rather detested about that kind of menu choice. This is pretty common in some applications, of course. Another point against it: You forget where it was initially set. In any case, I'm not seeing any warnings, no matter what crazy stuff I try with adjustments.

One final point on the UI: If you quickly drag adjustment sliders (such as Exposure, Contrast, Fill Light, etc.), which is a horizontal motion, but at the same time you move the mouse vertically, it will temporarily lose the change. I'm not completely sure I would term this a positive, but it is a predictable behavior and is a quick "take your finger off the chess piece" type motion that prevents you from having to hit Undo. That is good! You get infinite motion to the right or left without losing your +2 or -2 adjustment - but that's also the negative, because you can only select it within a relatively narrow horizontal band. In other words, you can't just move the slider back and forth quickly, or without keeping one eye on that slider, because the cursor will very quickly stray off the horizontal and you'll be looking at the unaltered image while you frantically thrash the mouse back and forth. Again, that's very bad! Wait...I lied, there's one more thing: There is no Undo button, only Revert. The way the window auto adjusts an image, and forgets it (reverting to the X3F image when you close and reopen) you initially expect that closing the window might always revert changes (there is a File menu after all, even if I don't see any Recipes as in DPP). If you liked the way the SPP software auto-adjusted an image better than your personal attempts, hitting "revert" will revert to the shot image in all its overly red glory (in the case of image #3 of 15). Maybe, depends on which of the two categories (sliders or the color wheel) you adjusted. If you adjusted both you have to revert both, or you have to pull down the menu up top and select X3F or Auto from the "Adjustments" menu. Two clicks either way, not too bad - it's just that this wasn't the behavior I was expecting given the way the images seemed to keep auto-adjusting (which I know now is actually the lag between loading an image and having it auto adjust or even load your custom adjustments). Furthermore, hitting "Revert" repeatedly in either category as an image is loading won't stop it from auto adjusting. Weird.

Ed Herdman Regular Member • Posts: 140
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

In inspecting the images closer, while the loupe is a great idea, hitting the "full resolution" button takes an age and a day. SPP also isn't remembering its auto adjustments for very long when switching between images that have been auto-adjusted, though this could be for the benefit of low RAM users. I was expecting Sigma's files to be much slower than working with Canon RAW, and it's mixed - the screen-size resolution (fits the window on a 1920x1200 display, giving very usable resolution for the whole-image display) is lightning quick, but getting the loupe out requires first hitting "full resolution," waiting an age, and then you're still stuck playing Silent Scope (TM) with the final image. Overall, the loupe is more than negated by the lack of a full resolution mode - windowed or fullscreen wouldn't have made much difference.

Image 5 - again, simple eyedropper application to the lady's white shirt makes her and the man's faces look much more natural than either the shot balance or the auto adjustment balance.

Image 6 - was rather taken with balance of colors until I found a proper eyedropper reference point (farthest of the roof structures on foreground building, the white one, right side of the facing wall - 4 Cyan + 1 Magenta), when it ended up looking rather just like any other slightly smoggy city landscape taken without a polarizer (not that it was or wasn't, just seems that way). Zooming in (after the prerequisite steps including the long wait) I saw the charm of the image in the great details, which I won't give away. As a total image, you don't see most of those details, though it's good to have them. Very nice to have all that detail waiting around. Didn't really have any differences in sharpness jump out at me. Actually, strikes me as a very sharp image from edge to edge despite the fast shutter speed. A bright day, huh? Brighter perhaps than the image conveys, maybe?

Image 7 - The Shocked Man on the Silver Seat - another neat composition, seems hard to color balance. Needs more Cyan and Yellow, but how much? Somewhere in the range of +3-5 of each value. I decide to pull out the White Balance setting, and all it seems to be doing is freeze up the computer for a few seconds at a time. No visible changes, whereas even +0.2 Tonal Adjustments had obvious results before. Turns out it gives control back while it's still chugging away. I'm intrigued by the possibility of getting higher resolution B&W images than from Bayer filtered cameras. Odd that Original White Balance seems to take a while...this program really isn't caching much.

Stopping off at Image 8 & 9 - I'm enjoying these images so I don't mind if I drag it out a bit longer, into tomorrow. It's a long enough post anyway.

Thanks again!

Usee
Usee Senior Member • Posts: 2,223
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

Hi Carl, hi folks,

Rytterfalk wrote:

I'm now back with my Chinese family and I've posted three RAW packs so far on my website. More to come. Please feel free to post your own versions.

nice 2 C U back, with finally one picture worth showing , for testing purposes (SDIM1547) a real great shot!

I did grab that one, for the following detail and sharpening test...

B.t.w. thank You for the invitation and the good RAW!

I noticed a few things about the SD1 and SPP5. On a Mac, to get "real" colors from SPP you need to save as AppleRGB gamma 1.8 . Only way right now to get consistency when playing on the Mac.

...no problem here, in conjunction with Silkypix Pro 5 - You can get nearly everything right.

I did use AdobeRGB in SPP5 (Windows) and applied sharpening -2.0...

The new Zero sharpening is -2.0 , if you shot with a perfectly sharp lens this setting will always looks best! I think Sigma needs to rework how and possibly when they apply sharpening. (before or after applying noise reduction) If you need extra sharpening, do that in Photoshop or the like. (LM, your cat looks waaaay over sharpened,

...I can also confirm this as the real Zero sharpening setting for SPP5 on Windows.
You are completely right, when You say "put the sharpening to -2.0"!

X3 Fill Light looks better and works better with SD1 files. =

Well, thats true, but You know, I prefer Silkypix Pro...

Missing the old foveon sharpness and 3D feeling? It's ALL about the lens! In my travel case I have 18-50 and on the SD15 it was my sharpest overall lens, now on the SD1 it's only perfectly 3D sharp around center. Please see SDIM1547 from RAW pack 2 and have a look at the stairway leading up to the skyroad. Play with sharpness and see for yourself.

http://www.rytterfalk.com/2011/07/03/2318/

http://www.rytterfalk.com/2011/07/03/sd1-exposure-raw-pack-2/

http://www.rytterfalk.com/2011/06/26/sd1-family-raw-pack-1/

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Carl @ Rytterfalk.com (Göteborg, Sweden)
http://www.rytterfalk.com
Proud Foveon user. Using Sigma SD and DP cameras.

Have a look at the SDIM1547 crop (exported as AdobeRGB 16 bit Tiff, post processed in Silkypix Pro and saved as sRGB)...

...especially the incredible details You get, if You don't use the destructive pseudo sharpness from SPP5!

(I choose to use no pop colors in this case to avoid distracting...)

...look at the faces of the two wheeler drivers on the 100% crop:

http://forums.dpreview.com/galleries/4164548502/photos/1237405/sd1-crop-sdim1547-silkypix-pp-cu

...and compare them to the artefact mud if You try to sharpen them in SPP5!

Imagine what will be possible when You develop the .X3F direct in Silkypix Pro and not just an exported TIFF!!!

-

P.S.:
please ignore the untidy "gallerie",

it is just for uploading examples to the forum, not for presentation, advertising, or similar...

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If I´m writing in bold letters, I do not shout , like one mentioned to me -
I´m just trying to improve the readability!

Uli

 Usee's gear list:Usee's gear list
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cinefeel Contributing Member • Posts: 860
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

Thanks Ulli!!

This is EXACTLY what I expected

In the meantime I hope Sigma can fix SPP5 problems ASAP!

Their software has so many issues with SD1 processing, it makes the camera look bad.

Felix E Klee
Felix E Klee Regular Member • Posts: 324
Re: 100% crop example of -2.0 sharpening..

For a newbie can you explain why you set exposure to -0.9? Why did you overexpose to begin with?

From my limited experiments overexposing makes sense for increasing the detail in the shadows. For example, I overexpose by one stop, then increase the fill light roughly by one stop, and reduce exposure by one stop. But that's not what you did.

I wonder how to learn more about post-processing with SPP.

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Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ5
OP Rytterfalk Veteran Member • Posts: 4,101
Re: 100% crop example of -2.0 sharpening..

Felix E Klee wrote:

For a newbie can you explain why you set exposure to -0.9? Why did you overexpose to begin with?

What I did? I did only take the shot and I'll let you do the conversion. I'm on a laptop far away from my "real" computer at home so I don't do much of careful processing right now. The setting you refer to is only what was last set while playing. Nothing serious.

Oh, and if you wonder why there are two over exposed shots - that's partly because it's interesting to see how much you can actually save in SPP - the other being that it's originally a bracketing exposure and the ones I gave you are the ones with the best facial expressions.

From my limited experiments overexposing makes sense for increasing the detail in the shadows. For example, I overexpose by one stop, then increase the fill light roughly by one stop, and reduce exposure by one stop. But that's not what you did.

I wonder how to learn more about post-processing with SPP.

By playing with files such as these.

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Carl @ Rytterfalk.com (Göteborg, Sweden)
http://www.rytterfalk.com
Proud Foveon user. Using Sigma SD and DP cameras.

OP Rytterfalk Veteran Member • Posts: 4,101
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

I need to try that new Silkypix Pro soooon!

Thanks for trying out the windows version as well, would be nice if you could post a side by side with 0 SPP sharpening, -2.0 and then also a Silkypix version of that same crop. Would help people such as myself to understand the difference.
--
Carl @ Rytterfalk.com (Göteborg, Sweden)
http://www.rytterfalk.com
Proud Foveon user. Using Sigma SD and DP cameras.

Felix E Klee
Felix E Klee Regular Member • Posts: 324
Re: 100% crop example of -2.0 sharpening..

Thanks for clarification!

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yvind Strm Veteran Member • Posts: 4,130
Awsome

Thanks for posting such a detailed report of your experience with the RAWs and SPP. Much appreciated.

yvind Strm Veteran Member • Posts: 4,130
Thanks Carl

Hello Carl

Thanks for making your RAWs available.
It of invaluable help for properly judging the results of the camera.

DMillier Forum Pro • Posts: 21,612
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

I've converted a couple of these and I'm a bit bemused. There's plenty of detail but they don't seem very Foveon. It needs a lot of sharpening to bring out the detail and they look better at 50% rather than actual pixels - much like a Bayer shot in fact. Also in the one with the guy on the moped with the little boy clinging to the front, the dark clothing seems contaminated with red. It looks almost exactly like the IR leakage that the Leica M8 has. Is there something different about the SD1 sensor or is it an early SPP issue, I wonder?

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Usee
Usee Senior Member • Posts: 2,223
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

I'm happy that You saw the obvious difference,
without the need to publish the comparison myself.

But anyway, I'll make the comparison suggested by Carl,
with a little smaller crops - either 1920x1200 or even smaller,
that one must not visit my gallerie for original size versions,
which are needed in this case...

-

However, would You please be kind and try the suggestion I've made here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1027&message=38723388

I would be happy, if I could thank You for Your help...

CU soon with more good comparison shots and examples!

cinefeel wrote:

Thanks Ulli!!

This is EXACTLY what I expected

In the meantime I hope Sigma can fix SPP5 problems ASAP!

Their software has so many issues with SD1 processing, it makes the camera look bad.

P.S.:
You are completely right, with Your statement...

-- hide signature --

If I´m writing in bold letters, I do not shout , like one mentioned to me -
I´m just trying to improve the readability!

Uli

 Usee's gear list:Usee's gear list
Samsung NX1 Samsung NX 12-24mm F4-5.6 ED Samsung NX 45mm F1.8 2D/3D Samsung 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 power zoom Samsung 50-150mm F2.8 S
cinefeel Contributing Member • Posts: 860
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

To Dmillier:

There is one major catch to the SD1 foveon feel:

It's there, all right. HOWEVER, because of the massive resolution you will only see the maximum 3D effect if the camera (and subject, depending on shutter speed) are PERFECTLY still. This is the recipe for that classic foveon look at 100% size.

If the photo is anything less than critically sharp, downsizing will indeed make it appear sharper.

This issue, of course, is nothing new. Shoot medium or large format film and you will have exactly the same issues!!

cinefeel Contributing Member • Posts: 860
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

I should add that a tripod is necessary for this, and that over long landscape distances the airspace and moisture, heat etc, will diffuse the light and reduce the maximum sharpness at times.

Having said that, I think Carl's bridge shot raw speaks for itself as a stunning early sample!!

The rest of the issues are 95% SPP problems that can be fixed.

Ed Herdman Regular Member • Posts: 140
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

One thing I found quite interesting was the apparent cleanliness, in terms of noise, of those night shots, though I note those are long exposures at ISO 100 - was a black frame subtracted? I wonder how much potential resolution the DP1 is losing due to photons missing the photosites and how much apparent sharpness is really due to false detail (not to mention the apparent oversharpening by default of the SPP software) but it's a fun toy, definitely.

More SPP problems - after saving a file as a JPEG, the magnification loupe disappeared, but according to the right-click cursor menu it should have been there! Had to cycle it to get it back. SPP is frustrating . How are you supposed to quickly review a set of images for the sharpest in the set - something very useful for amateur landscapers, for instance - on Canon DPP you just select a range of photos and do the half-resolution preview, which lets you cycle them according to the sharpest. With zoom lock and the appropriate codec installed, Irfanview allows you to do the same except now at 100% resolution - both methods seem better than SPP and its lag between switching images.

OP Rytterfalk Veteran Member • Posts: 4,101
Re: SD1 RAW packs 1, 2 and 3 and more..

I have three words for you: Lens, Lens and Lens.. I truly think it's for most parts that simple. it's difficult to find a lens of Sigmas current line-up that 100% good at SD1 100% - it's MUCH easier using the SD15.. tripod, perfect daylight and sweet spot in order to meet the 100% peek experience of yesterday.. (Studio work will look wonderful)..

I have some in here: http://www.rytterfalk.com/2011/06/25/sd1-teaser-post/

and I'd love to post raw from these - the 120-300 OS is one of those, few lenses that has what it takes.. Will post some wedding shots for you in my next raw pack.

DMillier wrote:

I've converted a couple of these and I'm a bit bemused. There's plenty of detail but they don't seem very Foveon. It needs a lot of sharpening to bring out the detail and they look better at 50% rather than actual pixels - much like a Bayer shot in fact. Also in the one with the guy on the moped with the little boy clinging to the front, the dark clothing seems contaminated with red. It looks almost exactly like the IR leakage that the Leica M8 has. Is there something different about the SD1 sensor or is it an early SPP issue, I wonder?

-- hide signature --

Carl @ Rytterfalk.com (Göteborg, Sweden)
http://www.rytterfalk.com
Proud Foveon user. Using Sigma SD and DP cameras.

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