According to Kodak airplane travel destroys your digital camera

Started Jul 2, 2011 | Discussions
antoineb Veteran Member • Posts: 6,653
the guy sounds SOOO dated I feel sorry for him

one example is he shows gaps between microlenses on a sensor - but most of the recent sensors have gapless microlenses. and he talks about "4mp".

so either that guy is totally behind the times - or that thing, even though it is SAID to be 2011, is more like 2005 or so.

as for the FUD about flying...

sad piece of video, poor guy

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MisterBG Veteran Member • Posts: 6,786
Re: I don't care if he's Ansel Adams, reincarnated...

Ed Herdman wrote:

CriticalI wrote:

I hope some of his ex-colleagues at Dalsa send him some of their opinions....
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MisterBG Veteran Member • Posts: 6,786
Re: the guy sounds SOOO dated I feel sorry for him

antoineb wrote:

one example is he shows gaps between microlenses on a sensor - but most of the recent sensors have gapless microlenses. and he talks about "4mp".

so either that guy is totally behind the times - or that thing, even though it is SAID to be 2011, is more like 2005 or so.

Actually, he was referring to "4K" which is the so-called Hi Defintion professional movie format, For some reason they refer to "4K" as shorthand for the 4096 horizontal resolution.

This appears to be the latest development in Hi Def movie production, since the systems used up to now have only 2048 horizontal definition (2K).

Maybe these Hi Def movie cameras suffer from different problems to digital still cameras?

as for the FUD about flying...

sad piece of video, poor guy

Agreed! Somebody is taking someone for a ride here...
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BRJR Forum Pro • Posts: 13,641
Re: According to Kodak airplane travel destroys your digital camera

Thanks, for the link.
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samWebster123 Senior Member • Posts: 1,153
Hate to say it's true

I've seen this phenomenon first hand via dead pixels after taking a flight.

This isn't new news! It's been discussed for many years.

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Simon97
Simon97 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,021
Re: According to Kodak airplane travel destroys your digital camera

This guy sounds like timeshare salesman...

However, doses of radiation do seem to damage photo sites. There are videos on youtube of people putting small "safe" lab samples over the sensor and after removing, there are a bunch of new hot pixels. Of course the lab sample is much stronger than the radiation in an airplane flight.

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Mike Walters Senior Member • Posts: 1,639
NASA use unmodified Nikons

So how do they ever survive?!?!?!?!

theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
Re: Hate to say it's true

Link please?

Jesper

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Deleted1929 Forum Pro • Posts: 13,050
Re: Hate to say it's true

I'm sure we can find people who have gone on buses, gone underground and just stayed indoors at home all day and discovered dead pixels that weren't there the last time they looked.

That doesn't mean the cause is what is being discussed.

Dead pixels can happen any time. They're just one type of failure in a complex device.

You are taking 1 + 1 and getting 3.

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StephenG

gloaming Veteran Member • Posts: 3,972
Re: Hate to say it's true

You don't want to put your new submarine-delivered pristine digital SLR within about 3 meters of a banana. They all have radioactive potassium in them which emits gamma rays. Of course, people would be well advised to never eat them as well.

BRJR Forum Pro • Posts: 13,641
Re: "So how do they ever survive?!?!?!?!" (Forget "... they ever survive ...")

More appropriately, how do we survive? And, here's pretty much what I did nearly a year ago now: Using your fingers, hyperlink over to BH Photo, Adorama, or to Amazon, and get yourself one of those cute little Leica MP or M7 Film Bodies (they're still current models, with full manufacturer's warranty, you know?) or for those of you into medium-format photography, one of the new generation Fujifilm Professional GF-670 Film Bodies, some of Kodak's New Generation (yes, indeed, Kodak is and has been busy at work developing and marketing "new generation/modern films", much of the research being exploited from their motion picture film research and side of their industry), "Professional Kodak Portra Film", and be ready for at least backup to any eventualities.
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ScottyNV Veteran Member • Posts: 3,889
i dunno... i've heard way too much here about '4k' video more than 3 years ago...

to credit '4k' being state of the art in 2011... no, it isn't being used in ALL high-end video, not by a long shot.. but it is hardly 'news' this year.

S.
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samWebster123 Senior Member • Posts: 1,153
Re: Hate to say it's true

sjgcit wrote:

I'm sure we can find people who have gone on buses, gone underground and just stayed indoors at home all day and discovered dead pixels that weren't there the last time they looked.

Last time I looked there wasn't any scientific evidence about gamma rays and bus travel but there is plenty of research on airplane travel and CCD damage. All major camera manufacturers are aware of this -go talk to anyone in the cinematography business and they'll confirm it...3 chip ccd HD cameras are particularly affected. Sony use to ship cameras by air over the north pole which is more susceptible to gamma rays than typical cross country routes and had to switch to ship due to complaints about ccd damage in their HD cameras.

Gamma rays vary in intensity so just because you're on a plane doesn't mean you'll end up with dead pixels!

For all you newbies and non believers http://www.jai.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Camera_Solutions_Application_Tech_Note/TechNote-TH-1087-CosmicRays.pdf

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beshannon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,216
Re: According to Kodak airplane travel destroys your digital camera

adegroot wrote:

this is shocking news !

Ok thanks.

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theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
Re: Hate to say it's true

samWebster123 wrote:

For all you newbies and non believers http://www.jai.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Camera_Solutions_Application_Tech_Note/TechNote-TH-1087-CosmicRays.pdf

To summarize the paper you linked; there's no significant issue except in the most demanding low level detection uses of sensors. There appears to be around 0.5% chance of an atom slightly dislocated per hour in the air, give or take. Granted, pixel peeping can be considered pretty demanding, but at the end of the day the paper linked does not support the rather harsh stance taken in the OP video. Unless the tolerances on those sensors was down on the atom level, which I admit I find unlikely.

It is, however, interesting, and as I suspected the issue is neutron excitation. Unfortunately I can't access the IBM research paper on soft failure, but as it appears to cover, well, soft failure it's not really on topic.

Jesper

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theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
Re: Hate to say it's true

To provide some perspective; I don't doubt that Sony found the failure rate on cameras unacceptable. The norm in mass production is to discuss failure rates in PPM, or parts per million. If the failure rate starts inching into double digit PPM it's generally a disaster, and even single digit PPM failures added by air transport is too costly to carry when it can be avoided. Add to that the saved shipping cost (albeit offset by slower time to market) and the choice of transportation is clear.

In other words, if 1-5 dead pixels occur per million cameras shipped, that would be enough to justify the measure of ceasing air transport for mass shipment. And frankly, that chance of getting a dead pixel is one I'm prepared to take.

Jesper

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Joseph S Wisniewski Forum Pro • Posts: 34,306
Then why did you? Lying is wrong...

There's a commandment against lying, you know.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbors.

samWebster123 wrote:

sjgcit wrote:

I'm sure we can find people who have gone on buses, gone underground and just stayed indoors at home all day and discovered dead pixels that weren't there the last time they looked.

Last time I looked there wasn't any scientific evidence about gamma rays and bus travel but there is plenty of research on airplane travel and CCD damage.

There's not "plenty". That's a lie. There's a small number of obscure papers that deal with the incidence of failure in several really demanding applications, the "class A" sensors we use in scientific applications, and deep well "enhanced IR" versions, at that.

All major camera manufacturers are aware of this

That's another lie. You have repeated so much incorrect information that it is obvious that you are not in touch with what "all major camera manufacturers are aware of" at all.

-go talk to anyone in the cinematography business and they'll confirm it...

I have, they didn't. You are lying, again.

3 chip ccd HD cameras are particularly affected. Sony use to ship cameras by air over the north pole which is more susceptible to gamma rays than typical cross country routes and had to switch to ship due to complaints about ccd damage in their HD cameras.

Got a reference to that absurd claim?

Gamma rays vary in intensity so just because you're on a plane doesn't mean you'll end up with dead pixels!

For all you newbies and non believers http://www.jai.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Camera_Solutions_Application_Tech_Note/TechNote-TH-1087-CosmicRays.pdf

As has already been pointed out, that's a paper dealing with a specific, rare class of sensor.

It also talks about a defect where the pixel sensitivity may be altered, taking it outside the class A cull that your DSLR or motion picture camera was never in, in the first place.

You'll also note that it is not a paper about gamma ray damage , but an entirely different class of particle, and the paper does its calculations based on the radiation at altitudes of 20,000 meters, or 65,000 feet.

So, I guess the moral of the story is don't ship scientific equipment via military reconnaissance aircraft on polar routes during energetic proton cosmic ray storm activity.

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steelhead3 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,672
Re: Then why did you? Lying is wrong...

Since gamma rays and x rays have a lot in common, why aren't scanners in airport security having the same effect on camera sensors?

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samWebster123 Senior Member • Posts: 1,153
Re: Then why did you? Lying is wrong...

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

There's a commandment against lying, you know.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbors.

It's really amusing that you people have never heard of this issue before and resort to slinging mud and insults at those of us who point out it's an actual phenomena.

Perhaps you'll believe nasa http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20070022613_2007020718.pdf

As for you Joseph...go get a life!

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theswede
theswede Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
Re: Then why did you? Lying is wrong...

samWebster123 wrote:

It's really amusing that you people have never heard of this issue before and resort to slinging mud and insults at those of us who point out it's an actual phenomena.

"Slinging mud"? "Insults"? Yes, it's a phenomena; I don't see anyone disputing that. What I see people disputing, including me, is that there is any research at all pointing to that it affects us to a noticeable degree.

Perhaps you'll believe nasa http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20070022613_2007020718.pdf

"In space". Yeah, that applies to airplanes. If you get insults, you deserve them until you can find something which actually supports your CLAIM, namely that sensors get dead pixels from being in AIRPLANES, and not from being IN SPACE. I haven't seen anyone doubting that occurs in space. The question is if it happens to any meaningful degree at the much, much lower altitudes and thicker atmosphere airplanes fly in.

Even if your unevidenced anecdote about Sony cameras is true, that works out to approximately one dead pixel per 500 years of flying with one camera, at a rough estimate. Still enough to cause significant losses to Sony, of course, but nothing to even begin worrying about for any private person. The chance of the camera being stolen from the luggage is much larger.

Jesper

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