Another D300 vs D7000 post !

Started Jun 13, 2011 | Discussions
Brockscorner Junior Member • Posts: 28
Re: Honestly

LOL absolute rubbish!! The D300 has a quicker operation, and to top it off, the shutter button on the d300 does not have the amount of spongy let-off the d7000 exhibits. I own and shoot both, plus an old Canon 40D that trumps both of them in certain areas.

agc1976 Senior Member • Posts: 1,713
Re: Honestly

PhillyFotog wrote:

the D7000 did a better job of focusing than the D300 when I switched bodies. I expected the opposite, intending to use a smaller faster lens on the D7000 for that reason. Nope. So I put the 28-70 on the D300.

Try focusing in very low light with the D7000

Twice this week I've gone out shooting at night with a colleague that owns a D7000 and I had to literally use the flashlight app of my iphone 4 to help him acquire focus. Meanwhile I snap into focus in less than a second with my D700, no AF assist at all. Yes, D700 is better than D300 also but the different is supposed to be small.

dezignman Senior Member • Posts: 1,591
I think the D7000 has AF focus assist...

but it is turned off by default. I might be wrong on this.

Tony Beach Forum Pro • Posts: 11,909
Re: Honestly

PhillyFotog wrote:

Shutter lag is unrelated to blackout time.

They are related, part of the blackout time is the shutter lag. Since the D7000 shutter lag is 5 milliseconds slower, for it to have less blackout time it will have to have a mirror that moves that much faster and then some.

As is resolution.

I never equated the two.

Two separate issues and both utterly unrelated to VF blackout interval due to mirror.

Mirror vibration is related to resolution, which I did allude to. If the mirror moves faster, it will need more dampening not to effect resolution when not using MLU, especially at intermediate shutter speeds (on the D200 I found that to be up to 1/250s, and on the D300 it is about 1/200s).

You continue to doubt what I, having both cameras, find simple to observe.

Yes, I strongly doubt you can observe 5 or even 10 milliseconds. All I ask for is some measured verification of your observations; so far, none has been offered.

BTW, I never suggested it had a practical relevance. Straw man.

Well, an actual and "noticeable" difference in mirror blackout time and shutter lag would have some practical relevance. The mirror goes up, then the shutter actuates, and any lag there would make one camera less responsive than the other. That is implicit in what you said since you said the difference between the D7000 and D300 is "noticeable." From the actual numbers I got from Imaging Resource, if you shoot the two cameras side-by-side at the exact same time, the D300 will get the shot 5 milliseconds sooner than the D7000 will get it.

I'm just asking some questions and I'm not convinced by your answers -- please don't take it personally.

nfpotter Veteran Member • Posts: 4,080
Re: Your Lenses are for D7000

rondhamalam wrote:

gwenhael appere wrote:

Hi guys,

Standard dilemna...i've got a D300s, that i'm using with 16-85VR, Sigma 10-20 and 50-500 OS. I like shooting landscapes, night/low ISO shots, as well as birding.

Your lenses will perform much better with D7000, a better sensor. The 50-500 is not a fast lens either.

The D300s will show better when used as a sport camera with fast lens such as 70-200mm. The AF system can not be matched by D7000.

But the differences are trivial,
except for the AF system that D300s is of professional class.

NONE of that is true, and in fact, quite the opposite.

A lens that doesn't resolve well shows up MUCH more of the D7000. You will see a BAD lens quicker on the D7K, because of the resolution.

The AF system in the D7K is as good as the D300/s for tracking motion.

enkindler
enkindler Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: I think the D7000 has AF focus assist...

That is a massive upgrade, I hate blinding people with that.

Here are some snapshots (wrong light, bad comp) that show that the d300 can focus fast. Trying to picture these guys makes sports or BIF photography seem easy.

I would love 50MP at 10 fps and ISO 50 for Orcas. You have no idea where they are going to come up, you can not lawfully approach them and they are only on the surface for seconds.

3D focus, and using AF-ON is the only way I could get the camera to focus on the right thing. Black blob on shiny water is not really a typical focus need.

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kk123 Regular Member • Posts: 388
Re: Another D300 vs D7000 post !

Thank you enkindler!

This is a cropped picture, with the subject in the middel of the frame. Diffraction is not an issue here at f13 then, since diffraction with this aperture occurs more and more the longer the distance is from the center of the frame. F13 was necessary in order to get the bird in the back as sharp as wanted.

http://ketilknudsen.com/

PhillyFotog Regular Member • Posts: 379
Re: Honestly

Well I don't have the D700 to compare, but I find it easy to believe. But I do have the D300, so I'll trust my own shooting experience over your assumptions.

agc1976 wrote:

PhillyFotog wrote:

the D7000 did a better job of focusing than the D300 when I switched bodies. I expected the opposite, intending to use a smaller faster lens on the D7000 for that reason. Nope. So I put the 28-70 on the D300.

Try focusing in very low light with the D7000

Twice this week I've gone out shooting at night with a colleague that owns a D7000 and I had to literally use the flashlight app of my iphone 4 to help him acquire focus. Meanwhile I snap into focus in less than a second with my D700, no AF assist at all. Yes, D700 is better than D300 also but the different is supposed to be small.

PhillyFotog Regular Member • Posts: 379
Re: Honestly

Tony Beach wrote:

PhillyFotog wrote:

Shutter lag is unrelated to blackout time.

They are related, part of the blackout time is the shutter lag. Since the D7000 shutter lag is 5 milliseconds slower, for it to have less blackout time it will have to have a mirror that moves that much faster and then some.

Mirror movement is but one component of shutter lag, not the sole determinate. Other factors are the cause of disparity. For example the startup time of the D300 is 100ms faster than the D7000. This is a circuitry issue. Button depression on digicams is, obviously, and electronic trigger. Perhaps the D300's quicker electronic process gains it some advantage here. There are lots of factors in play. But there is no doubt that the mirror actuation on the D7000 is quicker and smoother (more damped). But if you haven't tried yourself, your opinion will, as several have demonstrated, conform to your bias and assumption rather than actual observation. Religion vs empiricism.

PhillyFotog Regular Member • Posts: 379
Re: Honestly

Here is a post I found which might lend some shared observation of what I've been attempting to convey, here....

by peterzheng_real from yahootechgroups... Feb 14 2011

feel the mirror system between the d7000 and d300s

yesterday I tried a comparison of the mirror-oscillation between the d7000 and
d300s, there a little surprise is that the d7000's mirror-oscillation is even
slightly lower. We know that the d300s was having low mirror-oscillation ---- a
good grade, but the d7000's mirror-oscillation is lower than the d300s.

apparently, Nikon has much of the new design and development on the d7000,
including the mirror system. It is really a new mirror system in the d7000,
which is not a 5.3 fps motor to rotate speed up 7 fps.

Please put your left hand gently on the top of body, and then right hand presses
the shutter-button, sets the shutter time 1s or longer, you need to note the
mirror up of a slap, not the mirror sits down moment.

for the d7000, trying 3 states:
1. S mode, 2. Q mode (quiet), 3. Mup mode (mirror up). In this test, you did not
need to open the menu to set the delay mode. the S, Q, and Mup mode dial is in
left hand, very easy to operate.

in Mup mode, first time presses the shutter-button to lock up the mirror, second
time presses the shutter-button to open the shutter. In the shutter time 1s or
longer, you are able to distinguish the mirror goes up or sit down.

d7000's Q mode provided very low oscillation as the mirror system, and that the
sound is also lower, gentle, very excellent.

about the daily shoot in d7000, I think that the S mode is suited to some active
objects, but the Q mode has the wide usability.

the d7000 is really worth buying. Currently Nikon still continued to clear up
the stockpile of d90. Secondly Nikon needs the d5000 successor to play on the
stage before May in this year, thus the d7000's shipment expansion might be
later than April.

PS.
if you have the linear accelerometer, you could measure the DSLR cameras in
mirror-oscillation. In Japan, a laboratory had once released the related
technology to measure the blurry pixels of mirror-oscillation, this is a better
way, also able to measure a tripod.

Also, you cannot expect DPR or IR to measure the mirror-oscillation, their
testing shot in the mirror pre-up mode. They do not measure the
mirror-oscillation. However, it is a very important item of the imaging quality
of the DSLR camera.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,081
Re: Honestly

PhillyFotog wrote:

Religion vs empiricism.

Did you actually measure the D7000 mirror blackout time or not? If not than you are just as much of a believer as anyone else here. If yes you should be able to give us the times or to point to a source. Until then, your "empirical" test is not very much worth.

Also, the start-up time of the camera is totally irrelevant in this case and is definitely not critical at all.

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photoforfun Veteran Member • Posts: 6,084
Re: I have had a D3, D300s and a D7000

sandy b wrote:

I now have only the D7000. I love the ergonomics, the quiet shutter, the 14 bit high speed shooting, the better IQ, most of all the weight. The build is outstanding. I have had no oil, no back focus. The AF is quick and accurate. I miss the larger buffer occasionally, and the low light capability of the D3, but no longer shoot weddings, so don't really need it. Would I trade it back for a D300? Never. Would I for a D400? Possibly, but that is going to be a close to 2000.00 camera, probably buy a D700 id I was going to spend that much.

I honestly think Nikon nailed the D7k, best cropped sensor camera available today imo.

+1, using D7000 next to my D700 and I had D300 and D300s. TMHO D7000 is a way better camera than D300(s)
AF is great, also in lowlight:
http://www.fotografie.fr/fotoforum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1140#p3427
--
Kindest regards,
Stany
http://www.fotografie.fr/
http://www.fotografie.fr/fotoforum/index.php

I prefer one really good picture in a day over 10 bad ones in a second...

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,081
About mirror oscillation...

That post is not very informative and not very well structured. It also contains some misunderstandings.

Oscillation generated by the mirror up movement is critical and may affect the image, but oscillation caused by the mirror down has no relevance unless the shutter is opened again before the oscillation died out.

The same oscillation is causing more problems in a camera with less mass, like the D7000 than a camera with more mass, like the D300s. In other words, even if the D7000 is better damped it may still be more critical and worse than the D300s. I am not saying this is the case, but it can be.

Measuring the oscillation can be done easier, you don't really need anything else than a high speed video capable camera. Just remove the lens and take a movie of the mirror flipping up. You will see the oscillation and can measure the time for how long it is oscillating.

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agc1976 Senior Member • Posts: 1,713
Re: Honestly

PhillyFotog wrote:

Well I don't have the D700 to compare, but I find it easy to believe. But I do have the D300, so I'll trust my own shooting experience over your assumptions.

I also have a D300s and I had never had to struggle so much to find focus at night as my friend's D7000. Maybe the D300s AF was tweaked to perform better than the D300 as some users have reported but I doubt the D300 was much different.

From what I've seen I believe that a photo like this one is simply not possible with the D7000 without using some kind of AF assist. I did not use AF assist here and was using a Tamron 17-50 which is a lens known for having focusing limitations in low light.

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 13,231
Re: I have had a D3, D300s and a D7000

It is phenomenal at both high and low ISOs!

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,081
Re: I have had a D3, D300s and a D7000

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

It is phenomenal at both high and low ISOs!

I believe you, but...

...why is the focus better on the feet than the eye? Was it intentional?

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,081
Re: Honestly

agc1976 wrote:

PhillyFotog wrote:

Well I don't have the D700 to compare, but I find it easy to believe. But I do have the D300, so I'll trust my own shooting experience over your assumptions.

I also have a D300s and I had never had to struggle so much to find focus at night as my friend's D7000. Maybe the D300s AF was tweaked to perform better than the D300 as some users have reported but I doubt the D300 was much different.

I only have the D300s, but I doubt there is any difference between the D300 and D300s in that respect. Both are famous for the focus and not without reason.

From what I've seen I believe that a photo like this one is simply not possible with the D7000 without using some kind of AF assist.

I don't use the in-camera AF assist at all. The SB-900 is on and it is activated now and then when the flash is used, but the AF assist of the camera stays off.

I did not use AF assist here and was using a Tamron 17-50 which is a lens known for having focusing limitations in low light.

I am not sure why the D7000 would struggle here, but I have no experience with the camera, other than some small in-shop tests. Anyway, I never have had any focus issues with the lenses I have, thy all work fine under any conditions.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 26,081
Re: I have had a D3, D300s and a D7000

photoforfun wrote:

sandy b wrote:

I now have only the D7000. I love the ergonomics, the quiet shutter, the 14 bit high speed shooting, the better IQ, most of all the weight. The build is outstanding. I have had no oil, no back focus. The AF is quick and accurate. I miss the larger buffer occasionally, and the low light capability of the D3, but no longer shoot weddings, so don't really need it. Would I trade it back for a D300? Never. Would I for a D400? Possibly, but that is going to be a close to 2000.00 camera, probably buy a D700 id I was going to spend that much.

I honestly think Nikon nailed the D7k, best cropped sensor camera available today imo.

+1, using D7000 next to my D700 and I had D300 and D300s. TMHO D7000 is a way better camera than D300(s)

I am not saying I don't believe you, but what makes you say the D7000 is better than the D300s? The images in the link below are definitely no proof of that statement.

AF is great, also in lowlight:

That's possible too, but there is nothing below which is taken in low light. That underexposed image does not count and in any case, low light is almost never a problem, low contrast on the other hand is more problem for any camera. That's when most of them fail, but so far not my D300s.

http://www.fotografie.fr/fotoforum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1140#p3427

I don’t know why you guys take it so hard and try to defend the D7000 from every angle, even where no one has attacked it from. If it is fine and better than anything you have had before than be happy and use it.

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 13,231
Re: I have had a D3, D300s and a D7000

The front of the bird's left foot is oof. The front of the right is also oof from the other direction. In other words, the focus plane is right through the eye, as intended and shown by the little red square in ViewNX. Now, if this isn't as clear as could be expected at ISO 100, that's beyond any reasonable expectation.

Download the original for a better look. The eye is as nailed as it's going to get with that lens at that f stop at that ISO and that level of NR.
Couldn't have made anything like this with my D90, not even close.

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sandy b
sandy b Veteran Member • Posts: 9,334
Don't think so, Just tried an experiment

My office at work has no windows, turned off all lights, just ambient light from the hallway. It was at least as dark as your shot. Focus locked every time, with the inexpensive kit lens.

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