The latest on D7000 skin tones?

Started May 24, 2011 | Discussions
OP Swedish Hambern Contributing Member • Posts: 751
Re: YOU have DECIDED it doesn't work

Bla bla bla bla... Hypocondria... Sick in the head.... Bla bla bla... Doesn't want it to work... Bla bla bla... Mentally ill... Bla bla bla...

It works fine, mechanically. I'm just pointing out an oddity when it comes to color rendition. I really feel sorry if that makes you feel bad. That has never been my intent.

antoineb wrote:

It's amusing how YOU have DECIDED that the D7k doesn't work

And will NOT take any amount of samples or whatever

It's called Hyponchondria: you think your D7k is ill, you spend a huge amount of time attempting to "cure" purported problems, you spend a huge amount of time attempting to discover new purported problems, you spend your life discussing the problems. And, woe to anyone who tells you the problem is not in the body, but in your head Good luck with this.

OP Swedish Hambern Contributing Member • Posts: 751
Re: again - on what basis do you judge? Hypochondria...

Bla bla bla bla... Hypocondria... Sick in the head.... Bla bla bla... Doesn't want it to work... Bla bla bla... Mentally ill... Bla bla bla...

It works fine, mechanically. I'm just pointing out an oddity when it comes to color rendition. I really feel sorry if that makes you feel bad. That has never been my intent.

Jack Hogan Veteran Member • Posts: 6,599
Re: Picture control vs. exposure

Swedish Hambern wrote:

Still think the original non Picture Control is mush better. ... The color tones in the skin area is TOTALLY different.

Leaving technique aside for a moment (I agree with the suggestion of toning down fill flash next time), the skin tones of the two images look very similar on my recently calibrated/profiled U2410, imho neither image is much better than the other and, as for which is preferable, we are entering into the realm of subjectivity and artistic license: any minimal change one would make in PP would overshadow any existing differences.

I think you'd be shooting yourself in the foot returning your D7k for a D200 because you prefer the latter's color rendition, but if that's what it takes to make you happy, just do it.

Jack

OP Swedish Hambern Contributing Member • Posts: 751
A final portrait and a final tips

I think I've found a way to get constant more than acceptable results with the D7000. The trick is to not EVER EVER blow any red highlights. Because you really need those reds to get good skin tone and to avoid that dreadful orange tone.

And portrait really is much better at skin tones (surprise). Look at the picture above, pretty okay right? And it is the D7000.

Here's the recipe:

Picture Control Settings:
Portrait
Sharpening: +5
Contrast: +1
Brightness: +1
Saturation: +3
Hue: 0
Active D-Lighting: Off
Exposure compensation: -1.0 EV

This way you can avoid blowing the red highlights and you can achieve the deep, strong reds you can't get if you do not set the brightness to +1 and Exposure conpensation to -1.0 EV. Because you really need those deep reds.

Then I've also added a slight S curve in Photoshop to see if the colors holds up after some editing. And they really do. So... If you are getting orange skin with no texture and washed out reds. Try this. It really seems to be working.

Jack Hogan Veteran Member • Posts: 6,599
Re: A final portrait and a final tips

Swedish Hambern wrote:

Look at the picture above, pretty okay right?

On my recently calibrated/profiled monitor the skin tones look way too red for my taste, but to each his own

vagtanklan Senior Member • Posts: 1,454
Re: The latest on D7000 skin tones?

I find skintones to be quite pleasing, assuming there's ample light to achieve this.

A shot of me in the shade in the afternoon

But, I want to add that both the D70s and D80 both render beautiful skintones in daylight, sadly the former easily burns out highlights IMO.

 vagtanklan's gear list:vagtanklan's gear list
Nikon D40 Sony Alpha a7 II Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G II Voigtlander 40mm F1.4 Nokton Classic Sony FE 28mm F2 +5 more
rhlpetrus Forum Pro • Posts: 25,774
Re: metamerism

They may not be exactly same, but I've never heard anybody commenting on the differences for these pairs of cameras re IQ, and it's simpler to assume they are the same than otherwise.

binary_eye wrote:

rhlpetrus wrote:

And difference re D700 and D3/D3s in that index shows it may have a very large variability in terms of precision, since it's basically assumed those two cameras use same CFA and algorithms.

It may be assumed that the D700 is the same as the D3, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Go back to your own thread, check D300 and D300s numbers: 84 x 70. This can't be taken as a good measure of anything, if it varies so much for what are basically same cameras.

The color response of the cameras is different according to DXO. Relative to the D300, the D300S is less sensitive to red but more sensitive to blue.

Maybe sample variation? Why would Nikon change from D300 to D300s?

-- hide signature --

Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Leica D-Lux (Typ 109) Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D +4 more
rhlpetrus Forum Pro • Posts: 25,774
Re: metamerism

Cytokine wrote:

I agree, I think that at best we can say that the D3 D3S and D3x probably have the most sophisticated hardware. And it is difficult to imagine that at the cost they would be otherwise. The question is if it requires the expensive engineering of the D3 D3S and D3x to achieve high ISO and good colour from CMOS chips with on chip analogue digital conversion, how did they do this in the D7000. given its size and cost?

John

Remember that costs come mainly from R&D in electronics, once they become products, and initial development costs are paid, they can be done at a lower price, just check prices of LCD TV in the last 6-7 years.

I think is just basic evolution, a D7k today is a better camera than a D2x in basically all aspects, except weather sealing, at 1/4 of the price.
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Leica D-Lux (Typ 109) Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D +4 more
antoineb Veteran Member • Posts: 6,625
No, your point is you WANT to be unsatisfied

You make statements like, "is" - but you should say, "I can't get myself to be satisfied". But it's not something absolute. Is your next step to complain about poor WB or colour rendition on paintings?

If it's your style to take portraits at short range and deform faces with wide-angle (thus making a pretty girl look ugly), AND use flash on this, then either (a) tune your WB preset, or (b) if you WANT to stick to 4800K then stop complaining.

Again, it's hypochondria 100%, as far as I'm concerned. You should seek professional advice for this before it ruins your life.

 antoineb's gear list:antoineb's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ8 Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ18 Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS7 Olympus TG-610 Nikon D7000 +5 more
rhlpetrus Forum Pro • Posts: 25,774
Re: A final portrait and a final tips

I don't think he know how see colors, or his monitor is not calibtrated. Increasing contrast is the worst way to deal with skintones.

Jack Hogan wrote:

Swedish Hambern wrote:

Look at the picture above, pretty okay right?

On my recently calibrated/profiled monitor the skin tones look way too red for my taste, but to each his own

-- hide signature --

Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Leica D-Lux (Typ 109) Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D +4 more
rhlpetrus Forum Pro • Posts: 25,774
Re: Quiting this thread

Again, post here one of your portraits converted with Portrait Mode and one that you tweaked, let's us see what you are talking about.

Do you have a calibrated monitor, colors/luminosity/contrast. maybe that's the issue. Portrait Mode is already very good for D7k in my experience, if you have a properly exposed image (no blown Reds, right adjusted).
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Leica D-Lux (Typ 109) Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D +4 more
antoineb Veteran Member • Posts: 6,625
can't tell because we don't know the original person

YOU say that you are happy with this shot - no one can tell because no one knows the original person. Maybe the skin tone on the photograph on the shot is faithful, or maybe not.

For my personal taste it is too reddish, but again if the original model is too reddish then that's truthful.

I see you continue to apparently NOT want to do a WB preset, even though it's very easy:

  • press and hold the WB button

  • turn the back wheel until the WB icon shows "PRE" on the top LCD

  • let go of the WB button and press it again, holding for about 2 seconds

  • "PrE" will blink on the top LCD

  • aim at a suitable surface (white, or better a neutral gray card), press the shutter

If you refuse to do this and stick to 4800K then it's an ARTISTIC choice, which likely WILL often NOT give you the colours you saw. Which is fine, because on paintings also, artistic choices are made for the colours.

Good luck

 antoineb's gear list:antoineb's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ8 Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ18 Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS7 Olympus TG-610 Nikon D7000 +5 more
antoineb Veteran Member • Posts: 6,625
Agreed - way too red: eryhtropsia?

So maybe we have another case of "ken Rockwell-ism", or "Van Goghism", or in more professional terms, "Xanthopsia", ie predominance of yellow in the vision.

But in this case, it would be "Erythropsia", namely predominance of red in the vision.

With this, our friend Swedish Hambern would be bothered because the camera would never deliver what his eyes saw, and he would always found results too far on the colour spectrum opposite from red, ie green.

So, suggestion: our friend Swedish Hambern should have himself tested for both colour-blindness, AND erythropsia.

Sometimes the dumbest simplest explanations are the best.

 antoineb's gear list:antoineb's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ8 Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ18 Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS7 Olympus TG-610 Nikon D7000 +5 more
Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 24,867
Excellent Thread

In an effort to hurry the path to 150, I want to thank the OP for pointing out things other non-photographers might experience. Hopefully your experience will keep them from making the same user induced errors. Pointing out that setting a constant WB of 48K does indeed mess up skin tones in many situations, could be helpful to any one unfamiliar with how WB works. Your examples will go a long way in persuading folks not to do that. You also reinforced the benefits of having a calibrated monitor and the pit falls of ignoring expert advice. Thanks for the smiles, I enjoy the distorted faces. good luck.

OP Swedish Hambern Contributing Member • Posts: 751
Re: Excellent Thread

This is the worst bit about this forum. Exactly what do you get out of this? You people are so annoying. I'm really glad you LOVE your camera. Just make sure you protect yourselves.

Mako2011 wrote:

Pointing out that setting a constant WB of 48K does indeed mess up skin tones in many situations, could be helpful to any one unfamiliar with how WB works. Your examples will go a long way in persuading folks not to do that.

OP Swedish Hambern Contributing Member • Posts: 751
Re: Quiting this thread

There is no point publishing any image here what so ever. People will constantly find flaws or errors with my technique and frankly I don't have time to do any extensive testings.

My findings, however is that it's absolutely crucial, with the D7000, to NOT blow any red higlights, not even near. Because then things start to look very bad. The safest is to set the picture control to portrait and brightness to +1 and then constanty underexpose every image... In that way you can add some saturation as well, wich otherwise would blow those red highlights and make the sin look like crap.

So severe underexposure and an added brightness in the Picture Control seems to be the secret to get good skin tones out of the D7000. But quite as pleasing skin tones as the pre-picture control cameras like D70 and D200 seems to be impossible... But I guess that's a matter of taste really.

rhlpetrus wrote:

Again, post here one of your portraits converted with Portrait Mode and one that you tweaked, let's us see what you are talking about.

Do you have a calibrated monitor, colors/luminosity/contrast. maybe that's the issue. Portrait Mode is already very good for D7k in my experience, if you have a properly exposed image (no blown Reds, right adjusted).
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)

OP Swedish Hambern Contributing Member • Posts: 751
Re: A final portrait and a final tips

My monitor is calibrated. And low contrast does not allways look good. It's when you add some contrast the skin tone is tested to see how it holds up in the highlights and shadows. An evenly lit, flat face with no highs and lows is not only boring but also very easy for any sensor to handle. The challenging part is when you try to squeeze out that extra texture and utilize the highs and lows. It's then things usually starts looking wierd. Hope your're following me

rhlpetrus wrote:

I don't think he know how see colors, or his monitor is not calibtrated. Increasing contrast is the worst way to deal with skintones.

Jack Hogan wrote:

Swedish Hambern wrote:

Look at the picture above, pretty okay right?

On my recently calibrated/profiled monitor the skin tones look way too red for my taste, but to each his own

antoineb Veteran Member • Posts: 6,625
Yes, taste. But "no time for testing", hmmm

Glad to see you finally recognize that maybe, it's just a matter of taste.

At least two of us have found the shot you liked, to have way TOO RED skin tones. So really it won't cost you much to go see an eye doctor, and be checked for either color-blindness and/or erythropsia.

And, really, try doing a WB pre-set once in a while, especially when the light is tricky. I've described the (easy) procedure step by step in another post here.

Or again, if you refuse to move the WB away from 4800K, the assume your choice and don't expect wonders.

Finally, as you seem to recurringly suffer from this "hardware-hypochondria", if I were you I'd either spend a session or two about this with a professional (no offence meant, professionals CAN help in such situations), or at least attempt to reflect deeply about why I DECIDE to be unhappy with my D7k, at a very high emotional cost (and possibly a high cost to your friends and family) - and do NOT want to apply any of the simple remedies suggested, NOR accept that the results are actually largely fine.

Good luck

 antoineb's gear list:antoineb's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ8 Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ18 Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS7 Olympus TG-610 Nikon D7000 +5 more
Mako2011
MOD Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 24,867
Re: Yes, taste. But

+1, that could all help

scokill Veteran Member • Posts: 5,060
Re: Yes, taste. But

I got rid of my first wife because she had bad skin tone. My camera reproduced it perfectly and I always had to correct it with some PP.

 scokill's gear list:scokill's gear list
Nikon D4 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S 70-200mm F2.8E FL ED VR
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads