What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

Started Apr 17, 2011 | Discussions
spqr_ca
spqr_ca Contributing Member • Posts: 707
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

Yamin Tedja wrote:

Raphael Mabo wrote:

I notice with interest that when the 18-135 was released, we had many postings here from happy users. Now that Photozone has had one for test, this suddenly has changed.

Happy users will still be happy because they don't know the difference, they just use the image without a thorough analysis.

Do you take pictures or do you analyse them? They're still happy because they feel that they have gotten what they want from the lens/camera combination. A Photozone test isn't really going to change that, nor should it.

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OP jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

GPGeneralPhoto wrote:

That quote sounds like they want to keep the sales volume low and keep the price high. Ideally they should be at the point where the supply curve crosses the demand curve, but it seems to me they are well below the volume needed to cross the demand curve. But that's just a guess.
--
I'm thankful to still be able to...

I agree there is a price where Pentax call sell higher quantity and still enjoy profit. The K-5 is a hot camera best not to wait until its no longer king of APS sensor dSLRs and get to that max sold and nice profit point; for the benefit of future profits.

Believe me here in the Detroit area I have seen some really educated, smart guys make a ton money and a ton of mistakes and take a company into bankruptcy. Its usually caused by the need of the CEO/President to look good (too) to shareholders and it affects the whole company. If anyone thinks Hoya is not making any mistakes they are 100% wrong. No company has ever not made mistakes in judgment for max profits/sales through its life.

Take a look at GM. Money could not buy more highly educated guys and they lost billions and billions.

Look at Walmart and this is not old news.

Yes business such as Pentax must listen to their customers.

Thanks
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OP jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Re: Hi Jim

Jimbob Productions wrote:

How's things?

When companies talk of regions and markets they rarely equate that to countries or people - so don't take it to heart.

I guess what Pentax were getting at is that with the state of the world economy, rather than produce a lot of cameras and lenses that won't get purchased - they'll withhold until things look a bit more positive.

You don't always need to sell in high quantities - it's all about supply and demand.

Pentax reduced the amount of stock they held in US retail chains and really dodged a bullet with the Ritz/Wolf issues. Same in the UK with Jessops. Other companies really got burned.

Thanks for the reply. On a personal level I have been looking hard to buy the K-5. I would not sell my K20D to do it. But have pretty much decided to wait until the warranty is over on my K20D (Feb 2012) and then I will have more and better choices. I may still get the K-5 (its DR and high ISO is so tempting). I came real close to selling my DA18-55 WR for a silly low price and was going to get the DA18-135mm WR. This seemed like a real nice combo for an all weather walk around with my K20D. At $500 for WR and its new AF motor it seemed a good value. But now I can't buy it because of the physiological factor of such a poor review; and becuase it was better when he first bought it! The pics I have seen look great. But I guess I got kinda upset that Pentax would let Klaus test that lens; that's if it is not a great copy.

I did tell Klaus on his forum (a good forum!) that his best chance of it coming back fixed is if the delivery man tossed the package down and the elements got knocked back into proper alignment. You see Klaus has not said much of this but the lens performed better when he first bought it. The lens suddenly went down hill and needed to be serviced.

Klaus-

"Something happened to the tested (purchased) sample. The initial sample images taken a couple of months ago were better than recent samples. Time for servicing I guess ..."

http://forum.photozone.de/index.php?/topic/728-pentax-18-135-test-post-poned/page__p__6476#entry6476

Klaus gave many warnings about this to Pentax, who seems to have ignored it. And now there is just no way I will take a chance with this lens I wanted. But overall James I am fine and have a day off today to enjoy are snowfall here in Detroit. Time to go take some pics!

Thanks for the reply

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yudi Regular Member • Posts: 484
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

CANIKONTAXIAN wrote:

In 2010 Pentax dropped to 1.5% down from 1.7% in 2009.
1.5% meaning of every 100 cameras sold in 2010 Pentax sold 1.5.
Not even two per hundred, just 1.5 cameras sold per 100 !

Vendor 2010 2009

Canon 19 19
Sony 17.9 16.9
Nikon 12.6 11.1
Kodak 7.4 8.8

PENTAX 1.5 1.7
Vivitar 1.2 0.7
Other 6.7 7

where is Leica? in Other ?

does HOYA/PENTAX think they are in the same boat as Laica?

definitely, they are Not Apple. see the pricing of iPAD Apple made? that was surprisingly low, when it was annouced.

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ccd Regular Member • Posts: 372
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

Innovative is fine if it's not just gratuitous. Discerning users will not appreciate something that is just tacked on to bolster a list of features if it isn't actually useful and effective. And I think a lot of Pentax users are very discerning. They will criticize their own cameras while singing their praises too.

Besides, innovative can just be useful and not extremely technical or superfluous. I have the K-r and I did miss the top LCD I had on the *istDL for a while, but now I hardly notice.

What I do like is the ability to use lithium-ion and/or AA batteries. As far as I know, the K-r is the ONLY camera made that has that capability.....that's innovative. Not to mention the value it is otherwise. I got mine with two lenses brand new for $450. I paid the same for the DL a few years ago (with just the 18-55) and the differences are night and day (literally and figuratively!). I now have mid-level features for an entry level price.

But even the DL for it's time was a great deal. It was the cheapest DSLR I could find at that time. Smallest, lightest. Just moving up from point and shoot and it was the perfect transition. Well built. I remember my friend looking at it right after I bought it and he couldn't believe how much better constructed it was than his plasticky Canon Rebel XT. The kit lens on the DL was tons better than the XT's too (or Nikon D40) . And to my recollection it was the only entry level DSLR to have automatic ISO that you could preset the range for. I loved that it took AA's.....and has great image quality at lower ISO's. I still use it supplementally with the K-r.

Innovation can be practical.

Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
I'm more concerned about

These nasty EVF cameras I see mirror-less gets a mention I just hope they continue to cater for those who want an OVF. I can't stand EVF's and I'll run to whatever maker offers an OVF

Regarding the rest of it I believe overall Hoya isn't the right company for Pentax and that they would be better served with a parent company more willing to put up a sustained fight in the marketplace and investing more capital into the business.

Hoya don't entirely grasp the concept of an SLR system and they're seriously out of touch with some prices on lenses EU wise.

For the user base to grow the system overall has to be more appealing with a broader range of optics not just limited lenses. More users = more long term profit. They also need to put more effort into getting Pentax on the shelves at retailers.

kongor New Member • Posts: 9
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

In mentioning Apple you forget that the company's policy of high price-no innovation effectively drove it into the ground. When they came on strong again, it was not with computers but with gadgets!

Raffwal
Raffwal Regular Member • Posts: 359
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

If Pentax wants to be the poor man's Leica (high quality, low volume, high profit), they should definitely get a grip wrt the QC issues. Even as a Pentax user (two Pentax bodies, about a dozen K mount lenses) I'm hesitant to pay the K-5 premium over, say, a D7000 due to the QC issues.

Also, the colorful plastic fantastic cameras for teenage girls do not help with the premium brand image.

coleviolin Veteran Member • Posts: 5,993
Restore faith.

As in a marriage between two people, there needs to be a shared commitment to constantly restore faith. Pentax needs to show some improvement with quality on these new camera bodies and lenses, update firmware to fix autofocus or make some commitment to restore faith in SDM focus lenses. These things really matter.
--
Lipo

Winder Senior Member • Posts: 1,545
Re: Restore faith.

I think Hoya has done a pretty good job overall. Hoya brought the 645D to market. The K-5/K-7 are big steps forward for the Pentax brand. Their bodies are on the right path and I like the direction.

Yes, QC needs to improve.
Yes, lenses need some work.
Yes, AF is still not what it needs to be.

Hoya listened to what people had to say about the K-7 (Sensor is weak, AF performance is poor) and 18 months later they rolled out the K-5 which addressed the two biggest issues.

A lot of the market share growth that occurred last year happened in the mirror-less market with Olympus, Panasonic, & Sony. Olympus and Sony have taken a beating in the DSLR segment, but have done very well with mirror-less. Panasonic probably has the best HD Video body on the market from a feature and control standpoint.

Hoya has only had Pentax for a few years. In a short time they have done pretty well with the product offering. Hopefully they will invest in updating some of the older glass like the A* line and bring it out with an improved SDM.

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Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Re: Restore faith.

Winder wrote:

I think Hoya has done a pretty good job overall. Hoya brought the 645D to market. The K-5/K-7 are big steps forward for the Pentax brand. Their bodies are on the right path and I like the direction.

Yes, QC needs to improve.
Yes, lenses need some work.
Yes, AF is still not what it needs to be.

I agree with the points but to me Hoya are simply ramping up margins and prices too much in the EU to the point where they are probably hurting sales significantly. This is mostly on lenses as bodies they are fairly well priced for the K-x and K-r anyway.

The K-5 is not coming down in price def not UK wise (gone up a bit!)

They need to broaden their appeal by being more competitive on lenses and having some more affordable choices.

Flashes long overdue for an update

And whilst we're here I want to see an end to this silly NR raw as well..not a huge deal but let's not go down this road

I still don't think Hoya are right for Pentax they are profiteering on the products too much and limiting the appeal of the brand despite some good bodies. Pentax need a company that will just let them do the job..IMO Hoya are interfering too much

Winder Senior Member • Posts: 1,545
Re: Restore faith.

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

Winder wrote:

I think Hoya has done a pretty good job overall. Hoya brought the 645D to market. The K-5/K-7 are big steps forward for the Pentax brand. Their bodies are on the right path and I like the direction.

Yes, QC needs to improve.
Yes, lenses need some work.
Yes, AF is still not what it needs to be.

I agree with the points but to me Hoya are simply ramping up margins and prices too much in the EU to the point where they are probably hurting sales significantly. This is mostly on lenses as bodies they are fairly well priced for the K-x and K-r anyway.

The K-5 is not coming down in price def not UK wise (gone up a bit!)

It is coming down in the USA. I think the EURO is taking a beating with Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece, and the UK all hurting. That might have more to do with the prices than Pentax.

They need to broaden their appeal by being more competitive on lenses and having some more affordable choices.

I feel the opposite in that I want to see a line of higher grade lenses like the A* brought back. The 35mm f/2 is an affordable lens and the newest.

Flashes long overdue for an update

Agreed, but Pentax has limited resources. Bodies are the priority (K-x/K-r/K-7/K-5/645D)

And whilst we're here I want to see an end to this silly NR raw as well..not a huge deal but let's not go down this road

The assumption is that they are applying some level of noise reduction to ISO over 1600, but that is not confirmed. All image processors apply some NR even if when set to turned off. Adobe ACR automatically applies some of it even if you turn it off. DPR's claim that there is noise reduction, but I have also read that it could be a matter of Pentax processing RAW files over 1600 ISO with a different profile. The difference does not necessarily have to be a NR issue. It might be a combination of things that are done differently to RAW files over 1600 ISO. All cameras process RAW files with some level of NR. All of them apply some level of NR prior to the A/D conversion.
The K-5 results are the #1 issue.

I still don't think Hoya are right for Pentax they are profiteering on the products too much and limiting the appeal of the brand despite some good bodies. Pentax need a company that will just let them do the job..IMO Hoya are interfering too much

There would be no Pentax right now if Hoya had not stepped in.

How is Hoya limiting the appeal of the brand? The K-x was a huge success. The 645D has been a huge success. The K-5 has been a huge success.

Prices are going up because their products are in demand. Interest in Pentax is rising.
--
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Les Lammers
Les Lammers Veteran Member • Posts: 3,957
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

I just got rid of my K5 and DA Limiteds and bought a P&S from a manufacturer that sells more cameras. I feel much better now.

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Les Lammers
Les Lammers Veteran Member • Posts: 3,957
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

They sell a lot of the funny colored cameras.

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MightyMike Forum Pro • Posts: 40,568
*nt
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DAD519
DAD519 Contributing Member • Posts: 814
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

I put lithium batteries in my K100DS and K200D.

Actually I know what you mean. The K-7 and k-5 will take AA's or have the ability, if you purchase the grip.

David

ccd wrote:

Innovative is fine if it's not just gratuitous. Discerning users will not appreciate something that is just tacked on to bolster a list of features if it isn't actually useful and effective. And I think a lot of Pentax users are very discerning. They will criticize their own cameras while singing their praises too.

Besides, innovative can just be useful and not extremely technical or superfluous. I have the K-r and I did miss the top LCD I had on the *istDL for a while, but now I hardly notice.

What I do like is the ability to use lithium-ion and/or AA batteries. As far as I know, the K-r is the ONLY camera made that has that capability.....that's innovative. Not to mention the value it is otherwise. I got mine with two lenses brand new for $450. I paid the same for the DL a few years ago (with just the 18-55) and the differences are night and day (literally and figuratively!). I now have mid-level features for an entry level price.

But even the DL for it's time was a great deal. It was the cheapest DSLR I could find at that time. Smallest, lightest. Just moving up from point and shoot and it was the perfect transition. Well built. I remember my friend looking at it right after I bought it and he couldn't believe how much better constructed it was than his plasticky Canon Rebel XT. The kit lens on the DL was tons better than the XT's too (or Nikon D40) . And to my recollection it was the only entry level DSLR to have automatic ISO that you could preset the range for. I loved that it took AA's.....and has great image quality at lower ISO's. I still use it supplementally with the K-r.

Innovation can be practical.

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PIngp0NGMW Regular Member • Posts: 290
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

Les Lammers wrote:

They sell a lot of the funny colored cameras.

I noticed this too and find that it annoys me for some reason. I mean, I look at the other manufacturers and see them getting new bodies, lenses, and accessories, and Pentax releases camera in funky colours. Wow. Inspiring. The band-aids come in other colours now...

Of course I understand the somewhat awkward position Hoya-Pentax is in, but still, I find my interest in their products waning.

I've got a K20D right now that I love and a few lenses that I really like. But I don't see anything on Pentax's horizon that excites me or encourages me to upgrade. My K20D works great and I like it a lot. But I am actually skeptical of replacing it in the future with another Pentax DSLR.

I've been keeping an eye out on the EVIL market recently as I'm in the market for a smaller, more pocketable camera that will take high quality photos. I've been reading in the NEX forums that folks over there don't bother using their full-size DSLRs anymore. I wonder if I'm going to start wandering into that camp myself.

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Winder Senior Member • Posts: 1,545
Re: What Hoya thinks of the USA and Europe

PIngp0NGMW wrote:

Les Lammers wrote:

They sell a lot of the funny colored cameras.

I noticed this too and find that it annoys me for some reason. I mean, I look at the other manufacturers and see them getting new bodies, lenses, and accessories, and Pentax releases camera in funky colours. Wow. Inspiring. The band-aids come in other colours now...

Pentax is first and foremost a Japanese company. The colored bodies have been a huge success in Asia. Realize that Pentax is company that is marketing to A LOT of diverse people and not all of the products they introduce where designed specifically for you.

I've been keeping an eye out on the EVIL market recently as I'm in the market for a smaller, more pocketable camera that will take high quality photos. I've been reading in the NEX forums that folks over there don't bother using their full-size DSLRs anymore. I wonder if I'm going to start wandering into that camp myself.

I have yet to see a lens for m4/3 or NEX that is worth buying. They are all average lenses that depend heavily on in-camera correction.
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paulkienitz
paulkienitz Veteran Member • Posts: 5,385
Re: Restore faith.

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

Pentax need a company that will just let them do the job..IMO Hoya are interfering too much

I don't think it's clear that the previous Pentax management was doing any better than Hoya. Sure they kept lens prices down, but they took three years to bring the 60-250 to market, they killed the 645D, they never took proper advantage of the sales value of WR, and... well, some of their DA lenses are just weird. I think management-wise we're probably no worse off than before, and at least now the company isn't financially fragile.

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Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Re: Restore faith.

Winder wrote:

I feel the opposite in that I want to see a line of higher grade lenses like the A* brought back. The 35mm f/2 is an affordable lens and the newest.

There is nothing wrong in having higher grade lenses. Unfortunately they let the limited range (some interesting some poor value) hold back other potential lenses.

The 35mm f2 is quite overpriced really for an older prime lens. I assume you mean the 35mm f2.4 which I don't find very appealing unless the price drops significantly

Agreed, but Pentax has limited resources. Bodies are the priority (K-x/K-r/K-7/K-5/645D)

The 645D whilst interesting and a good sign the company is in for the long term is not likely to be a huge seller simply on price

They have a gap between the K-r and K-5 which should be filled

The assumption is that they are applying some level of noise reduction to ISO over 1600, but that is not confirmed. All image processors apply some NR even if when set to turned off. Adobe ACR automatically applies some of it even if you turn it off. DPR's claim that there is noise reduction, but I have also read that it could be a matter of Pentax processing RAW files over 1600 ISO with a different profile. The difference does not necessarily have to be a NR issue. It might be a combination of things that are done differently to RAW files over 1600 ISO. All cameras process RAW files with some level of NR. All of them apply some level of NR prior to the A/D conversion.

Disagree I've used and processed plenty of raw files and there def is non avoidable NR applied to recent Pentax models. Mostly NR on colour noise but also sharpening I disagree with this approach and so do many.

There would be no Pentax right now if Hoya had not stepped in.

How is Hoya limiting the appeal of the brand? The K-x was a huge success. The 645D has been a huge success. The K-5 has been a huge success.

645D is irrelevant to most photographers mostly on price no problems having it but they need a FF body too and badly need a better lens range offering prices at lower, and mid points.

Prices are going up because their products are in demand. Interest in Pentax is rising.

No prices are going up mostly because Hoya are profiteering or simply taking a very short term strategy of putting up lens prices far more than Canon Nikon and Sony have done over the years.

End result is they have actually lost market share because they're not tuned into the DSLR market as a whole

There is much to like about Pentax but Hoya are not the ones to take them there. A company that does not understand offering various price points on lenses is a flawed one.

People are put off by the overpriced lenses and lack of affordable ones. Some are put off by the slow limited lenses. Those that are not will end up mostly buying lenses from other makers thus providing no profits for Pentax.

Nikon understand this whilst I don't like their lower end bodies they do have a good affordable range and have just updated the 50mm f1.8 as well as offering a 35mm f1.8. Canon are fairly well sorted too.

Pentax are not! People look at the whole system when they buy and Pentax are weaker here.

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