poll: EVIL, DSC or CSC ?

Started Apr 16, 2011 | Discussions
Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,333
poll: EVIL, DSC or CSC ?

The poll is bogus. All the the alternatives sux.

I start a new poll myself

What to you thiink?

  1. EVIL: Electronic View Interchangeable Lens (Camera)

  2. DSC: Digital System Camera

  3. CSC: Compact System Camera

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Ralf Ronander
Ralf Ronander Contributing Member • Posts: 796
Re: poll: EVIL, DSC or CSC ?

The problem with your suggestions are:

a mirrorless camera doesn´t have to have interchangable lenses, it doesn´t have to be compact and it doesn´t have to be a "system".

So, like I said in another thread:
DSLM (digital single lens mirrorless) - can you beat that?

OP Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,333
Re: poll: EVIL, DSC or CSC ?

Ralf Ronander wrote:

The problem with your suggestions are:

a mirrorless camera doesn´t have to have interchangable lenses, it doesn´t have to be compact and it doesn´t have to be a "system".

Thats a strength and not a problem.

Almost all cameras are mirrorless ... so the name does not say a thing.

So, like I said in another thread:
DSLM (digital single lens mirrorless) - can you beat that?

Close, but no cigar. I like DSL better - digital single lens. Thats actually very good!

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OP Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,333
Re: poll: EVIL, DSC, CSC or DSL ?

I added DSL -. which is the one I just now prefer.

  1. EVIL: Electronic View Interchangeable Lens (Camera)

  2. DSC: Digital System Camera

  3. CSC: Compact System Camera

  4. DSL: Digital Single Lens (Camera)

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ajoe Regular Member • Posts: 125
Re: poll: EVIL, DSC, CSC or DSL ?

"Single Lens" as in DSLR and SLR is to differentiate these cameras from the dual lens reflex cameras, like the old Rolleiflex or Rolleicord.

But there is little point in keeping this expression since there are only single lens cameras around.

To me, the keywords would be System and Compact (or Micro). To use words describing what the cameras do not have is weird to me. the fact that it is NOT a reflex camera means that this word (or rather the "R" acronym) should be omitted rather than adding "Mirrioless" or "Non-Reflex".

The only real difference to a compact camera is the ability to change the lens, so the word "System" is vital.

Eventually, this will sort out itself in due time. Perhaps incorrectly, just bear in mind that a lot of LED-backlit LCD screens/TVs are denoted as LED screens although they are still very much LCD screens.

Ralf Ronander
Ralf Ronander Contributing Member • Posts: 796
Re: poll: EVIL, DSC or CSC ?

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Ralf Ronander wrote:

The problem with your suggestions are:

a mirrorless camera doesn´t have to have interchangable lenses, it doesn´t have to be compact and it doesn´t have to be a "system".

Thats a strength and not a problem.

Of course, but we´re talking about an acronym for a special category that won´t lead to confusion, aren´t we?

Almost all cameras are mirrorless ... so the name does not say a thing.

Eh?

So, like I said in another thread:
DSLM (digital single lens mirrorless) - can you beat that?

Close, but no cigar. I like DSL better - digital single lens. Thats actually very good!

Well now you´ve got another problem: even current DSLR:s fit into that category, and the ponit would be to separate these from the mirrorless ones. If you object to that, why not just settle for Digital Camera (DC)?
But in my opinion that would be rather pointless....

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Ralf Ronander
Ralf Ronander Contributing Member • Posts: 796
No pls, DSL covers just about everything.

See my comment above

beshannon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,216
Re: poll: EVIL, DSC or CSC ?

Ralf Ronander wrote:

  • can you beat that?

Yes, I call it a camera!

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BamaPanda
BamaPanda Senior Member • Posts: 2,271
CSC

It is already being used by the mfgs., from what I can tell.

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Antisthenes Regular Member • Posts: 353
Re: poll: EVIL, DSC or CSC ?

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Ralf Ronander wrote:

DSLM (digital single lens mirrorless) - can you beat that?

Close, but no cigar. I like DSL better - digital single lens. Thats actually very good!

Any expression containing " single lens" is a non-starter, as some cameras might have two or more lenses, as explained here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=38217485

Antisthenes Regular Member • Posts: 353
EVIL is a totally silly proposition...

... and the reasons were already given here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=38217405

Besides, an expression like EVIL — Electronic Viewfinder IL — doesn't even correctly describe popular mirrorless camera designs like the Sony NEX-3 and NEX-5 that don't have an Electronic Viewfinder, unless you're willing to make semantic contortions and stretch the meaning of the word "finder" to accommodate the NEX camera's large-ish rear LCDs. Note that these LCDs are, in concept, similar to the focusing ground glass of a view camera. Now, did people call a view camera's ground glass a "finder" ?

Fotogeneticist Regular Member • Posts: 143
Re: 1 VOTE FOR DSC

I like DSC because it's somewhat familiar as an acronym already and it explains that the format must be compact and it is a system camera like the Hasselblad, where it can accept interchangeable lenses unlike standard compact digital cameras.
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Fotogeneticist Regular Member • Posts: 143
Re: EVIL is a totally silly proposition...

Agree. Whether these cameras have viewfinders or not is irrelevant to the class. Look at the Leica X1. Where's the EV? What about the hybrid viewfinder of the Fuji X100? The thing that makes these cameras special is that they have interchangeable lenses and they are COMPACT. If they are not compact, I for one, would have no interest in this category as I already have a perfectly fine D700 that takes photos better than any of these cameras that is not much smaller and without a laggy, pixelated electronic viewfinder.
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DrewE Senior Member • Posts: 2,053
Re: EVIL is a totally silly proposition...

Antisthenes wrote:

... and the reasons were already given here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=38217405

Besides, an expression like EVIL — Electronic Viewfinder IL — doesn't even correctly describe popular mirrorless camera designs like the Sony NEX-3 and NEX-5 that don't have an Electronic Viewfinder, unless you're willing to make semantic contortions and stretch the meaning of the word "finder" to accommodate the NEX camera's large-ish rear LCDs. Note that these LCDs are, in concept, similar to the focusing ground glass of a view camera. Now, did people call a view camera's ground glass a "finder" ?

For view cameras, I don't know that they did (they called it the ground glass, mostly). For TLR cameras, I think it was called a finder at times. However, I have no problem whatsoever calling an LCD screen a viewfinder. A viewfinder is some device that you use to find what the view of the camera is. An LCD screen on the back is as much a viewfinder as an LCD screen in an eyepiece or a metal frame attached to the top of the camera (like irons on a gun).

The one advantage that EVIL has over many of the other suggestions IMHO is that it actually spells out the differences between these cameras, DSLRs, and compact P&S cameras. All that "Digital System Camera" or similar permutations tells is that it doesn't use film and perhaps hints that it has some manner of accessories. DSLRs, P&S cameras, etc. all fit that description too. (Memory cards, USB cables, batteries, tripods, skins, etc. are all accessories that could very reasonably be considered to make a "system." For that matter, a camera in itself is arguably a system.)

In my mind, I think of these camera systems as a sort of spiritual descendent to RF cameras. Perhaps DRF would be a reasonable name, although Leica would probably object and not without some cause (since they lack the traditional rangefinder coupled focusing mechanism). CDAF is arguably a form of rangefinder, in that it finds the range to the subject within certain limits, but that's stretching things.
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KEITH-C Forum Pro • Posts: 14,131
Re: EVIL is a totally silly proposition...

Why are all you guys so intent on rejecting the obvious ? MILC is the best of the options presented , it is easy to remember & is no longer than 'DSLR'. Attention does not need to be drawn to the presence of an EVF because without a mirror it should be safe to assume that it will probably have an EVF but , of course, some obstinate manufacturers have put a spanner in the works by making cameras without EVFs. In order to avoid confusion these cameras should be ignored !

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Antisthenes Regular Member • Posts: 353
Re: EVIL is a totally silly proposition...

DrewE wrote:

Antisthenes wrote:

an expression like EVIL — Electronic Viewfinder IL — doesn't even correctly describe popular mirrorless camera designs like the Sony NEX-3 and NEX-5 that don't have an Electronic Viewfinder, unless one is willing to make semantic contortions and stretch the meaning of the word "finder" to accommodate the NEX camera's large-ish rear LCDs.

I have no problem whatsoever calling an LCD screen a viewfinder. A viewfinder is some device that you use to find what the view of the camera is. An LCD screen on the back is as much a viewfinder as an LCD screen in an eyepiece or a metal frame attached to the top of the camera (like irons on a gun).

Methinks such an approach to vocabulary is a bit too lax, as it would make the distinction between "viewfinder" and, say, "display" disappear, whilst these words are, in general, used to designate quite different implements.

Antisthenes Regular Member • Posts: 353
Re: EVIL is a totally silly proposition...

KEITH-C wrote:

Why are all you guys so intent on rejecting the obvious ? MILC is the best of the options presented

When one thinks about the probable evolution of digital camera architectures, it is far from obvious that a term like mirrorless is desirable or would even convey a meaningful distinction among various digital camera classes.

This post, with which I happen to agree 100%, should be read and understood by all the people making acronym suggestions.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=38217402

TheGuyBehindTheCamera Forum Member • Posts: 81
CDS: Compact Digital System (nt)

No Text

chuxter Forum Pro • Posts: 21,714
Re: EVIL is a totally silly proposition...

KEITH-C wrote:

Why are all you guys so intent on rejecting the obvious ? MILC is the best of the options presented , it is easy to remember & is no longer than 'DSLR'. Attention does not need to be drawn to the presence of an EVF because without a mirror it should be safe to assume that it will probably have an EVF but , of course, some obstinate manufacturers have put a spanner in the works by making cameras without EVFs. In order to avoid confusion these cameras should be ignored !

Or throw the wrench back at the OMs by labeling them as "View-Finder-Less" cameras...VFLs for short.

I think it's OK to call the LCD on the back of a camera a VF if it doesn't have a "proper", eye-level VF (either optical or electronic). Perhaps "viewfinder" is a term that should go away? Why not call it a "composing screen"? That seems like what we would call it if we didn't have 80 years of "viewfinder" to confuse us.

BTW, to answer your lead question, we reject MILC because it's equally obvious that dpr was rigging the poll to make us choose that one...they left off the ones that most of us want!

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Leonard Migliore
Leonard Migliore Forum Pro • Posts: 17,367
Let us embrace EVIL

Antisthenes wrote:

... and the reasons were already given here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=38217405

Besides, an expression like EVIL — Electronic Viewfinder IL — doesn't even correctly describe popular mirrorless camera designs like the Sony NEX-3 and NEX-5 that don't have an Electronic Viewfinder, unless you're willing to make semantic contortions and stretch the meaning of the word "finder" to accommodate the NEX camera's large-ish rear LCDs. Note that these LCDs are, in concept, similar to the focusing ground glass of a view camera. Now, did people call a view camera's ground glass a "finder" ?

Rear screens are very much viewfinders. What did people call the thing on a Rollei where you saw the image? A"waist-level viewfinder". So the screens on NEX's and the like are electronic viewfinders.

As I recall, we called a ground glass a "ground glass".

EVIL is succinct and correct as a description. "Mirrorless" would include things like the Leica M9, which is a rangefinder camera with an optical finder (DRC?).

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