focus point & parallax -X100

Started Mar 30, 2011 | Discussions
jeffshen New Member • Posts: 10
focus point & parallax -X100
2

X100 does have the parallax corrected frame lines, but the focus point is another story.

Look at the following photo, the guy's face is blurred. The distance between he and I was around 1.2 meters, I focused on his eyes using OVF(the green box). When I checked out the focus point, X100 showed it is actually on the wall behind him(the red cross).

The next photo is taken by EVF, no such problem.

I have tried two X100s, both are same. When you switch between OVF and EVF, you can see the focus points aim at different places. Closer the distance is, more the focus point shifts.

Stephenbw
Stephenbw Senior Member • Posts: 2,515
Re: focus point & parallax -X100

Is that because the EVF has 49 focus points and the OVF 25?

The manual says on page 49;

When you switch to the optical viewfinder, the camera will select the focus frame closest to that selected in the electronic viewfinder or LCD monitor.

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Stephen

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OP jeffshen New Member • Posts: 10
Re: focus point & parallax -X100

I use the central focus point either in OVF or in EVF. I suppose they are same, but not.

James Bligh Senior Member • Posts: 2,369
Re: what remains of X100 if it cannot focus in OVF mode?

X100's most strong selling point is that it is equipped with world first hybrid viewfinder. About the hybrid viewfinder, I think the reason why people are so enthusiastically welcoming X100 is its OVF. Then what remains of X100 if it cannot focus in OVF mode? People are already talking about its drab colors. Not mentioning tilted OVF, now unreliable AF in OVF? The castle is crumbling I guess.

jeffshen wrote:

X100 does have the parallax corrected frame lines, but the focus point is another story.

Look at the following photo, the guy's face is blurred. The distance between he and I was around 1.2 meters, I focused on his eyes using OVF(the green box). When I checked out the focus point, X100 showed it is actually on the wall behind him(the red cross).

The next photo is taken by EVF, no such problem.

I have tried two X100s, both are same. When you switch between OVF and EVF, you can see the focus points aim at different places. Closer the distance is, more the focus point shifts.

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In Manchester in the 1840s, men and women were treated like animals. Why then should we be surprised that the utopian dreams of early communists were so appealing, or be so certain that they never will be again? -- Michael Elliott

Nell27
Nell27 Senior Member • Posts: 2,708
Re: focus point & parallax -X100

See the posting right below yours from kurth.

Seems like the guy who did the minor review he referenced had the same problem.

Michael Kaufman
Michael Kaufman Senior Member • Posts: 2,763
Re: what remains of X100 if it cannot focus in OVF mode?

James Bligh wrote:

The castle is crumbling I guess.

I don't care what anyone else says, James. I find you very entertaining.

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James Bligh Senior Member • Posts: 2,369
Re: what remains of X100 if it cannot focus in OVF mode?

Michael Kaufman wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

The castle is crumbling I guess.

I don't care what anyone else says, James. I find you very entertaining.

I can be entertaining, at the same time I can be ruthless. When I was young I guess I was ruthless. Now? I don't know but I think I have become reasonable.

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In Manchester in the 1840s, men and women were treated like animals. Why then should we be surprised that the utopian dreams of early communists were so appealing, or be so certain that they never will be again? -- Michael Elliott

jbm32 Junior Member • Posts: 39
Re: focus point & parallax -X100
1

What the OP is saying is that it is a parallax problem. This is common with this type of camera. When your subject is close what you see through the OVF is not what the lens is seeing. When you use the EVF you see exactly what the lens is seeing.

My guess would be to only use the OVF when your subject is over 6 feet away. This is just a guess as I don't have my X100 yet. Even then your framing may be off a little bit, also due to parallax. This is not a camera fault as all cameras of this type have this behavior.

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dmartin92
dmartin92 Senior Member • Posts: 2,278
thanks, that's interesting (nt)

nt

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uwbrother Regular Member • Posts: 467
Re: what remains of X100 if it cannot focus in OVF mode?

OMG, the sky is falling.

James Bligh wrote:

X100's most strong selling point is that it is equipped with world first hybrid viewfinder. About the hybrid viewfinder, I think the reason why people are so enthusiastically welcoming X100 is its OVF. Then what remains of X100 if it cannot focus in OVF mode?

It can focus in OVF. SLR viewfinders are TTL, they're different. These viewfinders have parallex error. The beauty of hybrid viewfinder is that if you know when to switch to EVF, you get the best of both worlds. With other systems it's one or the other.

OP,

You should also try to decrease the size of the focus area. That may decrease these errors too. With this style of viewfinders looking at the distance scale helps as well (in fact, M9 rangefinder doesnt even have autofocus).

James Bligh wrote:

People are already talking about its drab colors.

People talk about all sort of random things. You tend to believe anything and everything someone talks about. x100 colours are fine. Colour is a matter of taste and that can be fixed in PP anyway.

James Bligh wrote:

Not mentioning tilted OVF,

Those who had it all acknowledge the amazing service they're getting from Fuji to get it fixed. Ask Leica and Canon owners who long it takes for them to get defective cameras serviced.

James Bligh wrote:

now unreliable AF in OVF? The castle is crumbling I guess.

Drama Queens, aren't we?

Nell27
Nell27 Senior Member • Posts: 2,708
Re: focus point & parallax -X100

You're said all cameras of this type have this problem.

Then what you're actually saying is that the optical viewfinder on all cameras of this type are not good.

You may be right but it's a shame to pay for a camera with an optical viewfinder and have to say "my camera has an optical viewfinder but it's only for show. It doesn't actually work."

I know the viewfinder on the G series Canon cameras are not very good and only hope the one on the X100 turns out to be much better.

Fuji built a fixed 35mm equivalent lens camera. There shouldn't be a problem with the optical viewfinder.

Nell27
Nell27 Senior Member • Posts: 2,708
Re: what remains of X100 if it cannot focus in OVF mode?
1

Parrallax error effects framing the subject.

How does it effect autofocus?

Parrallax error can be a problem for close up photography and can cause you to think you have a complete picture within the frame when you've actually cut off much of your intended shot.

The further away your subject the less the chance of error.

Parrallex error aside, if you focus on a person's eyes and the camera's actual focus point turns out to be the persons ear, I don't think this is a parrallax error problem.

James Bligh Senior Member • Posts: 2,369
Re: Your foothold is creaking.

uwbrother wrote:
OMG, the sky is falling.

James Bligh wrote:

X100's most strong selling point is that it is equipped with world first hybrid viewfinder. About the hybrid viewfinder, I think the reason why people are so enthusiastically welcoming X100 is its OVF. Then what remains of X100 if it cannot focus in OVF mode?

It can focus in OVF. SLR viewfinders are TTL, they're different. These viewfinders have parallex error. The beauty of hybrid viewfinder is that if you know when to switch to EVF, you get the best of both worlds. With other systems it's one or the other.

Sounds like an X100 Ambassador.

OP,

You should also try to decrease the size of the focus area. That may decrease these errors too. With this style of viewfinders looking at the distance scale helps as well (in fact, M9 rangefinder doesnt even have autofocus).

Thank you for the information anyway. But I wonder why people prefer M9 despite it doesn't autofocus. If I can choose I'll buy M9, of course if you reimburse me.

James Bligh wrote:

People are already talking about its drab colors.

People talk about all sort of random things. You tend to believe anything and everything someone talks about. x100 colours are fine. Colour is a matter of taste and that can be fixed in PP anyway.

Have you ever heard of the phrase 'high index of suspicion'? In my profession I was trained to suspect. A good auto mechanic detects minor problem before it becomes a big problem.

James Bligh wrote:

Not mentioning tilted OVF,

Those who had it all acknowledge the amazing service they're getting from Fuji to get it fixed. Ask Leica and Canon owners who long it takes for them to get defective cameras serviced.

I prefer a bland new car that doesn't need any fixing from the start.

James Bligh wrote:

now unreliable AF in OVF? The castle is crumbling I guess.

Drama Queens, aren't we?

Your foothold is creaking. If I were you I'll resign the job, I mean X100 Ambassador, before I fall down.

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In Manchester in the 1840s, men and women were treated like animals. Why then should we be surprised that the utopian dreams of early communists were so appealing, or be so certain that they never will be again? -- Michael Elliott

OP jeffshen New Member • Posts: 10
Re: what remains of X100 if it cannot focus in OVF mode?

uwbrother wrote:

OP,

You should also try to decrease the size of the focus area. That may decrease these errors too. With this style of viewfinders looking at the distance scale helps as well (in fact, M9 rangefinder doesnt even have autofocus).

In OVF mode, you cannot change the size of the focus area.

uwbrother Regular Member • Posts: 467
grr ....

Aaah .... that sucks!!! Fuji really does need to update the firmware asap.

jeffshen wrote:

uwbrother wrote:

OP,

You should also try to decrease the size of the focus area. That may decrease these errors too. With this style of viewfinders looking at the distance scale helps as well (in fact, M9 rangefinder doesnt even have autofocus).

In OVF mode, you cannot change the size of the focus area.

Michael Kaufman
Michael Kaufman Senior Member • Posts: 2,763
Re: Your foothold is creaking.

James Bligh wrote:

I wonder why people prefer M9 despite it doesn't autofocus. If I can choose I'll buy M9, of course if you reimburse me.

Wow, James, way to go against the tide. You would take the $10,000 camera+lens over the $1200 camera+lens? Really? i can't imagine anyone else would make such a radical position.

Next you'll be telling me that you would rather have the expensive BMW over the Hyundai. Or dinner at a nice restaurant over the corner diner.

I suppose in an extreme, you would rather have $10,000 cash then $1,200.

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barjohn
barjohn Senior Member • Posts: 1,197
Re: Your foothold is creaking.

The challenges of AF when viewed through an OVF on a mirror-less camera. Parrallax is caused because the optical axis for the OVF is not the same as the optical axis for the lens. In a mechanically coupled manual focus camera like and M8 or M9 the issue is slightly different. As you focus the lens it moves the frame to compensate for the parallax and the central focus rectangle is always in the center of the frame so you are both framing and focusing at the same time. The relationship between the coincident focus patch and the frame remains constant and without thinking about it you are constantly reframing to keep the patch where you want focus. In the electronic OVF, there is no direct connection between your focusing and the frame. Prior to pushing the shutter button 1/2 way the camera does not know the distance to the focus point and hence the frame line is positioned at the infinity position and the focus rectangle or cross hair is centered in the frame. When you perform the 1/2 press, it computes the focus distance and moves the frame line to the proper distance correction leaving behind the focus rectangle in the former frame center. In theory, the focus distance should not have changed and merely recomposing the shot should take care of the issue. In real life 3 dimensional objects, the movement needed to reframe the subject can result in the desired focus point being off. This becomes more significant the closer you are to the subject.

The challenge is what to do about this? Obviously, if the lens is stopped down and the DOF is large this is a non-issue but with the lens open at f2 or f2.8 where the DOF is shallow it is an issue. My solution would be to use AFC and continuously adjust the frame lines for distance and refocus as the shutter is fully depressed. This behavior would be most like the behavior of the mechanical RF and could probably be made to work up to about 10" (25cm) from the subject. I'm sure others will have other ideas that should be suggested for Fuji's consideration.
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Comments and critiques welcome.

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James Bligh Senior Member • Posts: 2,369
Re: The good times are coming

Now you seem to face the reality.

http://kr.blog.yahoo.com/jaygunkim/1460957

The good times are coming
They'll be coming real soon
And I am not just pitching pennies at the moon

I am not about to come unhinged when eveything goes wrong
A fact is something to be faced
but not for very long

The good times are coming
They'll be coming real soon
And I am not just pitching pennies at the moon

The good times are coming
When they come I'll be there
with my both feet firmly planted in midair

There's gonna be a place for us
a place where we belong
to stand outside just looking in has got to be a wrong

The good times are coming
They'll be coming real soon
And I am not just pitching pennies at the moon

The good times are coming
When they come I'll be there
with my both feet firmly planted way up there, in midair

Mama Cass Elliott / The Good Times are Coming

uwbrother wrote:
Aaah .... that sucks!!! Fuji really does need to update the firmware asap.

jeffshen wrote:

uwbrother wrote:

OP,

You should also try to decrease the size of the focus area. That may decrease these errors too. With this style of viewfinders looking at the distance scale helps as well (in fact, M9 rangefinder doesnt even have autofocus).

In OVF mode, you cannot change the size of the focus area.

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In Manchester in the 1840s, men and women were treated like animals. Why then should we be surprised that the utopian dreams of early communists were so appealing, or be so certain that they never will be again? -- Michael Elliott

loafer Senior Member • Posts: 1,652
what if the user recomposed after the frame shift

focus-recompose is notorious for causing this kind error. If the user had the subject centered and then the frame lines jumped to deal with the close focus - it really looks like he must have recomposed before shooting - quite frankly it may be hard not to recompose when that happens. It will take a long time to get used to shooting with this camera (probably longer than the delay from order to delivery!)

barjohn
barjohn Senior Member • Posts: 1,197
Re: what if the user recomposed after the frame shift

As a software developer, I have to say that certain aspects of this camera act like they were written by different teams and then assembled as a whole. For example the difference in AF between S and C modes. In S mode there is a resizable focus rectangle but it is only resizable in EVF or LCD mode and it isn't permanent. Further the ability to find focus in low light or low contrast is no where near as good as the AF in C mode. In S mode one must be around 80 cm from the subject in OVF mode. On the other hand in C mode one gets a cross hair and it will focus to 53 cm and focus faster in with a lower contrast subject. Fuji should take the best implementation and make it the standard implementation in either mode. AFS mode makes more sense for EVF use and maybe it should be restricted to EVF and AFC for OVF.
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