Anyone been following this article/thread on Oly?

Started Feb 15, 2011 | Discussions
erichK Veteran Member • Posts: 6,182
Olympus imaging is hardly a failure

Pete_CSCS wrote:

... is a new opportunity to make changes; change direction so you can walk the path to success. A person/company with the desire to succeed and to never give up (with intelligence and deep pockets) will become successful in time.

There are those people that throw in the towel either from despair, hopelessness, depression and those companies that give up to cut their loses that choose not to succeed.

Many feel Olympus did that with the OM system and is now doing it again with Four Thirds.

If the company shows a lack of confidence in their own products than how much confidence will their consumers have?

I bought my OM-1 in 1973, and the last OM-3Ti came of the assembly line almost thirty years later. That is hardly a failure or a premature abandonment. We must credit that camera with fundamentally transforming the slr type of camera,

With dslrs, Olympus has, again, introduced fundamental changes to really effective dustbusters, better weather sealing -again- smaller cameras- and Live View. Commercial realities have forced them to place most of their resources with another industry-shaking innovation, true EVIL cameras.

Ricoh, Konica, Yashica, Contax, Kodak, Minolta and other smaller brands did, indeed, give up. Olympus coninues to put up a pretty impressive fight to retain a place in serious photography.
--
erichK
saskatoon, canada

Photography is a small voice, at best, but sometimes one photograph, or a group of them, can lure our sense of awareness.

  • W. Eugene Smith, Dec 30, 1918 to Oct 15, 1978.

http://erichk.zenfolio.com/

http://www.fototime.com/inv/7F3D846BCD301F3

underwater photos:
http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/5567

 erichK's gear list:erichK's gear list
Olympus E-1 Olympus E-330 Olympus E-620 Olympus E-5 Olympus PEN E-PL5 +25 more
Dan Veteran Member • Posts: 3,725
Re: Heh

Funny I was thinking it was time for you to realize how someone could interpret your comments not only to me but your original post reply as being overly sensitive or defensive!

Seriously...too funny!

Guess that's not gonna happen either...anyhow enjoy your gear! You shouldn't have any new model Olympus replacements with a mirror to replace it with anytime in the near future!

That's ok though it's all going mirrorless this year...what can Nikon and Canon be thinking with their 1D and D3 series and all the rest of the DSLRs...just sitting on the store shelves while all this Olympus micro stuff is "flying" off the shelves...I guess that's why I never see it in any stores anywhere...sells so fast you can't even see the inventory...haha!

Dan

 Dan's gear list:Dan's gear list
GoPro Fusion
pris Senior Member • Posts: 2,191
Re: Heh

Dan wrote:

That's ok though it's all going mirrorless this year...what can Nikon and Canon be thinking with their 1D and D3 series and all the rest of the DSLRs...just sitting on the store shelves while all this Olympus micro stuff is "flying" off the shelves...I guess that's why I never see it in any stores anywhere...sells so fast you can't even see the inventory...haha!

Oh, I got it now. You have troubles following the line of conversation. Either that, or desire to kick Olympus once more overweighs everything else - no need to waste an opportunity, right? Haha indeed.

What was I thinking ever answering to you at all. Carry on. I'll wait for a counterpart that actually understands the subject of exchange.

Dan Veteran Member • Posts: 3,725
Re: Heh

I'll take that as your admission to being overly sensitive and defensive.

Enjoy your gear and thanks for the apology and admission...it means a lot,

Dan

 Dan's gear list:Dan's gear list
GoPro Fusion
pris Senior Member • Posts: 2,191
Re: Heh

Oh, I'll take that as your admission that you can't read anything other than is graven in your head. Thanks for confirming my earlier suspicion. Please continue, you are an entertaining sample. A bit too one-tracked but hey, good entertainment is at premium these days.

pseudothomasmerton Forum Member • Posts: 61
Re: Olympus imaging is hardly a failure

Ricoh, Konica, Yashica, Contax, Kodak, Minolta and other smaller brands did, indeed, give up. Olympus coninues to put up a pretty impressive fight to retain a place in serious photography.

RICOH -- Still making cameras the last time I checked, and doing very well for themselves.

YASHICA -- also still making cameras....

CONTAX -- A tiny player who perished when people stopped buying their wares. Cameras are huge capitol investment, you need lots of buyers to get ROI, or you end up like Olympus. But the parent company, Kyocera, is still going strong and doing well without having to worry about cameras any longer. Carl Zeiss is also doing quite well for themselves.

KODAK -- Still making cameras and high-end sensors for Leica & Hasselblad. But for how much longer who knows...they are having problems finding buyers for their wares, but not for a lack of trying. They'll probably declare bankruptcy in a couple of years.

MINOLTA -- Making more money with office equipment than they did with cameras, so they sold it off to Sony, who is doing a very nice job in regards to innovation, and are now the #3 player behind Nikon and Canon.

OLYMPUS -- Put all their eggs in the micro 4/3 basket and in the process, completely alienated 95% of their customers in a single stroke. The imaging division is hemorrhaging cash, having invested tons of capitol in a camera system that is losing what popularity it had to rival Sony, and will need extensive restructuring just to stay alive, if it's not just shut down or sold off.

-- hide signature --

pseudo thomas merton

Rriley
Rriley Forum Pro • Posts: 21,846
Re: Olympus imaging is hardly a failure

pseudothomasmerton wrote:

Ricoh, Konica, Yashica, Contax, Kodak, Minolta and other smaller brands did, indeed, give up. Olympus coninues to put up a pretty impressive fight to retain a place in serious photography.

RICOH -- Still making cameras the last time I checked, and doing very well for themselves.

not like they were, they once had a big presence in cheap but very well featured 'K' mount SLRs with a range of lenses under the brand Rokinon

YASHICA -- also still making cameras....

likewise they had some excellent SLRs and RF cameras, all that didnt translate into digital, along with their association to Contax theyre a big loss to the industry

CONTAX -- A tiny player who perished when people stopped buying their wares. Cameras are huge capitol investment, you need lots of buyers to get ROI, or you end up like Olympus. But the parent company, Kyocera, is still going strong and doing well without having to worry about cameras any longer. Carl Zeiss is also doing quite well for themselves.

basically they gambled it all on the Contax N which failed hugely, Contax went into receivership and this wonderful maker was gone forever

KODAK -- Still making cameras and high-end sensors for Leica & Hasselblad. But for how much longer who knows...they are having problems finding buyers for their wares, but not for a lack of trying. They'll probably declare bankruptcy in a couple of years.

at one time maker of pro platform SLRs costing 30k

MINOLTA -- Making more money with office equipment than they did with cameras, so they sold it off to Sony, who is doing a very nice job in regards to innovation, and are now the #3 player behind Nikon and Canon.

in their association with Konica, KM walked away

OLYMPUS -- Put all their eggs in the micro 4/3 basket and in the process, completely alienated 95% of their customers in a single stroke. The imaging division is hemorrhaging cash, having invested tons of capitol in a camera system that is losing what popularity it had to rival Sony, and will need extensive restructuring just to stay alive, if it's not just shut down or sold off.

whatever its about it isnt just a restructure, it is focussed on their Imaging dept and its lack of profitability. While we dont know the detail I assume the competence of some people will be on the table, the right of passage of the designs, the sales pipeline, the notion of 'plan' or focus point to work to. Its fix it or cut it.

-- hide signature --

pseudo thomas merton

-- hide signature --

Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended

 Rriley's gear list:Rriley's gear list
Sigma DP2 Merrill Canon EOS 5D Olympus E-3 Olympus E-5 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 +1 more
erichK Veteran Member • Posts: 6,182
Re: Olympus imaging is hardly a failure

pseudothomasmerton wrote:

RICOH -- Still making cameras the last time I checked, and doing very well for themselves.

Are they? Good to know, because I thought that their imaging section has become were a very minor player pursuing a niche market with mixed success.

YASHICA -- also still making cameras....

almost invisibly!

CONTAX -- A tiny player who perished when people stopped buying their wares.

They certainly were more than a tiny player for at least a couple of decades;

Cameras are huge capitol investment, you need lots of buyers to get ROI, or you end up like Olympus. But the parent company, Kyocera, is still going strong and doing well without having to worry about cameras any longer. Carl Zeiss is also doing quite well for themselves.

Olympus could also probably have an easier corporate life without cameras, but lets hope that they, yet again, venture to continue on the harder road.

KODAK -- Still making cameras and high-end sensors for Leica & Hasselblad. But for how much longer who knows...they are having problems finding buyers for their wares, but not for a lack of trying. They'll probably declare bankruptcy in a couple of years.

MINOLTA -- Making more money with office equipment than they did with cameras, so they sold it off to Sony, who is doing a very nice job in regards to innovation, and are now the #3 player behind Nikon and Canon.

Konica disappeared into Minolta, and Minolta was swallowed by Sony. That hardly pleased the Minolta (let alone the Konica users) I know.

OLYMPUS -- Put all their eggs in the micro 4/3 basket and in the process, completely alienated 95% of their customers in a single stroke. The imaging division is hemorrhaging cash, having invested tons of capitol in a camera system that is losing what popularity it had to rival Sony, and will need extensive restructuring just to stay alive, if it's not just shut down or sold off.

Most of Olympus' "eggs" are actually in much more important (in every way!) areas like Life Sciences, Medical Imaging and related optics and electronics, where they do very well, too.

I agree that Olympus has done some things that do, in hindsight, look like mistakess, and even a few that were stupid at the time they did them (you may want to look at my threads on The Camera Store and on Canadian distribution). Among the worst were the promotion of some real yahoos who saw Oly's future in mass marketing of slick gadgets rather than the quality optics and solid engineering that are Oly's forté. (Yes, these 5 star idiots did, indeed, manage to do a lot of damage!)

However, it is important to also recognize that Olympus has persisted in making cameras for nearly three-quarters of a century, that they have repeatedly dared to invest in major innovations, and also that even in difficult situations like the last decade of the OM series they persisted production and supported their customers as long as they could. (I can still remember taking my Pen Ft and Fv a well as my OM 1 and 2 to an Olympus photo store clinic in Basel, Switzerlnd in 1988, and being amazed by the painstaking testing, adjustment, cleaning and lubrication a two very capable Olympus technicians lavished on these already long-out-of-production cameras.)

Of course I regret the lack of a follow up to the E 4xx and the 5xx, and most especially the E 6xx series, and like many, suspect that the last case is a mistake. However, I am also grateful that they did somehow manage to get the E-5 out, and to make some it embody many moderate but significant improvements, despite the huge hit their camera department has taken.

And their innovative new compact, as well as the solid design decisions the E-PL2 suggests that there is some important research and development and even re-tooling going on, much as there was as OM 3Ti production was finally shutting down, and the first visions of what became the E-1 were starting to be discussed.

-- hide signature --

pseudo thomas merton

-- hide signature --

erichK
saskatoon, canada

Photography is a small voice, at best, but sometimes one photograph, or a group of them, can lure our sense of awareness.

  • W. Eugene Smith, Dec 30, 1918 to Oct 15, 1978.

http://erichk.zenfolio.com/

http://www.fototime.com/inv/7F3D846BCD301F3

underwater photos:
http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/5567

 erichK's gear list:erichK's gear list
Olympus E-1 Olympus E-330 Olympus E-620 Olympus E-5 Olympus PEN E-PL5 +25 more
Dan Veteran Member • Posts: 3,725
Re: Heh

ah...thanks so much!

you're funny side comes out...glad to see you got something other than just OVERLY SENSITIVE and DEFENSIVE!

Enjoy your gear!

haha

Dan

 Dan's gear list:Dan's gear list
GoPro Fusion
pseudothomasmerton Forum Member • Posts: 61
Re: Olympus imaging is hardly a failure

However, I am also grateful that they did somehow manage to get the E-5 out, and to make some it embody many moderate but significant improvements, despite the huge hit their camera department has taken.

That's a very good way of looking at things. At the time of the E-5's release, I didn't realize just how bad Olympus Imaging was doing financially. No, it's not a bad effort at all, and everyone who has one seems to really enjoy it, but I must admit that I agree with DPReview, and find it overpriced by about $500. As much as I would like one, I'm probably going to have to take a pass if the price stays at it's current level.

For the first time ever I'm getting really curious about the cameras of Nikon, Canon and Sony. Even Sigma! And I'm 100% Olympus at this time. But I honestly prefer the DSLR form factor, even Panny's fake DSLR's, and can't bring myself to embrace the micro 4/3 stuff from Oly. It's cute, but it's not what I need.

And their innovative new compact, as well as the solid design decisions the E-PL2 suggests that there is some important research and development and even re-tooling going on, much as there was as OM 3Ti production was finally shutting down, and the first visions of what became the E-1 were starting to be discussed.

Given what they had to work with, which honestly wasn't much, the E-PL2 is certainly a successful redesign. But I still think it was a major mistake to send it out without the TruePic V+ processor. That really would have truly differentiated it from the E-PL1, rather than just being repackaging effort.

However....

There's been another minor setback for Olympus micro 4/3 today from one of it's biggest fans, Steve Huff. B&H sent him a Panasonic 14mm f.2.5 lens to play with, and now he wants to get rid of his Oly 17mm f.2.8. He showed side-by-side image samples showing why he's favoring the Panny, and I have to agree with his conclusion, based on what I saw.

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2011/02/16/the-panasonic-14mm-2-5-micro-43-lens-review-by-steve-huff/

Despite whatever good Olympus has done with the E-Px series, where as they get nice endorsements from Steve Huff, Kirk Tuck, Thom Hogan, etc., they have truly messed up with their lenses, which isn't helping matters much. All three of those guys all seem to prefer the Panasonic lenses over the Olympus offerings, as do a lot of other micro 4/3 users.

You can't just get half the equation right--and even when Olympus does hit a nerve in one spot, they really mess up elsewhere. Hence, the future really does not look bright for their continued existence.

-- hide signature --

pseudo thomas merton

Dan Veteran Member • Posts: 3,725
Re: Anyone been following this article/thread on Oly?

Well said!

I'd only add the E5 and it's replacement can't be priced in the same ball park as the D700 but needs to be in the D7000 range and ideally $100 less than the D7000.

Put the E5 up against the D7000 and at least more Olympus fans will buy it...you won't convert many if any Canon or Nikon shooters but at least you slow down the exodus and maybe get a few that have left to come back!

The E5 costing $500 more than the D7000 is just not an easy sell or buy for many folks.

Dan

 Dan's gear list:Dan's gear list
GoPro Fusion
pris Senior Member • Posts: 2,191
Re: Heh

Can't share your delight unfortunately - your stupid side is coming out more and more, and I have some sympathy... not enjoying other people's, how do I put it softly... lack of bearings? Your willingness to demonstrate aforementioned lack though is admirably cute. So sympathy or not, I am going to enjoy you making an idiot out of yourself. Understandably, after failing to admit unjustified attack what else can you do but continue repeating that track you stuck on... Now, smart one would have ended it by that admission long ago, but we have established already that's not the case with you.

Continue please - you are a not a very high quality entertainment but then again, I haven't paid anything for being here.

Dan Veteran Member • Posts: 3,725
blah blah blah...

you got a point in that there rambling anywhere?

blah blah blah

you jumped on a fella...I said I think what he said has merit...you don't agree and like to type a million words saying really nothing...

you are overly

SENSITIVE

a bit of whiner too

and extremely DEFENSIVE

get over it...it's who you are...it's not like I'm calling you sissy or pris!

of course if you are a girl than by all means accept my apologies!

haha

Dan

 Dan's gear list:Dan's gear list
GoPro Fusion
pris Senior Member • Posts: 2,191
Re: blah blah blah...

Oh, fun continues. Cheap and poor, but as we said before...

Say, do you have to work hard to be that stupid or it comes naturally to you?

Dan Veteran Member • Posts: 3,725
Re: blah blah blah...

hi prissy,

that is your best post yet!

shows how much your other ones have added!

thanks...I might have to let you have the last word...hopefully they'll be as short as your last post!

haha

Dan

 Dan's gear list:Dan's gear list
GoPro Fusion
pris Senior Member • Posts: 2,191
Yes,

stupidity obviously comes naturally to you, just as I thought. In two threads now. Oh what fun.

dingenus Senior Member • Posts: 1,936
Re: Olympus imaging is hardly a failure

But I still think it was a major mistake to send it out without the TruePic V+ processor.

Hmm, there is only one problem I think. The E5 has 3 processors, the EPL2 2!
The EPL2 would be too slow or more expensive.

 dingenus's gear list:dingenus's gear list
Olympus E-M1
Pete_CSCS Veteran Member • Posts: 3,592
Never said Olympus imaging was a failure

erichK wrote:

I bought my OM-1 in 1973, and the last OM-3Ti came of the assembly line almost thirty years later.

Yes it was a good run, about 31 years actually. A much longer run than 4/3rds which hasn't ended offically yet but looks like it's getting close to the end.

That is hardly a failure or a premature abandonment.

Nope it isn't. The Nikon F series of film cameras has a run of about 52 years and is still available with the F6 today. Maybe Olympus could have kept the OM4 available from limited camera stores/internet mail order sources and/or direct from Olympus like Nikon continues to do.

Yeah I know that we're in the digital age but I still meet pros that continue to shoot film along with digital. They feel they can still get some things out of film that they can't from DSLRs. Much like the audiophiles clinging to their turntables/records in the digital age.

We must credit that camera with fundamentally transforming the slr type of camera,

With dslrs, Olympus has, again, introduced fundamental changes to really effective dustbusters, better weather sealing -again- smaller cameras- and Live View. Commercial realities have forced them to place most of their resources with another industry-shaking innovation, true EVIL cameras.

Ricoh, Konica, Yashica, Contax, Kodak, Minolta and other smaller brands did, indeed, give up. Olympus coninues to put up a pretty impressive fight to retain a place in serious photography.
--
erichK
saskatoon, canada

Photography is a small voice, at best, but sometimes one photograph, or a group of them, can lure our sense of awareness.

  • W. Eugene Smith, Dec 30, 1918 to Oct 15, 1978.

http://erichk.zenfolio.com/

http://www.fototime.com/inv/7F3D846BCD301F3

underwater photos:
http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/5567

-- hide signature --

'When nothing seems to help, I go and look at a stonecutter hammering away at
his rock perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it.
Yet at the hundred and first blow it will split in two,
and I know it was not that blow that did it,
but all that had gone before.'
-- Jacob Riis (1849 - 1914)

Stay Well,
Pete K.

 Pete_CSCS's gear list:Pete_CSCS's gear list
Kodak EasyShare Z612 Olympus E-500 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 Olympus 12-40mm F2.8 +6 more
deleted_081301 Senior Member • Posts: 1,862
Re: Olympus imaging is hardly a failure

CONTAX -- A tiny player who perished when people stopped buying their wares. Cameras are huge capitol investment, you need lots of buyers to get ROI, or you end up like Olympus. But the parent company, Kyocera, is still going strong and doing well without having to worry about cameras any longer. Carl Zeiss is also doing quite well for themselves.

basically they gambled it all on the Contax N which failed hugely, Contax went into receivership and this wonderful maker was gone forever

I think you will find Contax stopped making Cameras about 1972 when Contax farmed out production to rebadged yashicas (later taken over by kyocera)

Kyocera were never Contax's parent company just the contracted manufacturer (like Cosina are today for some Zeiss lenses) Kyocera decided to end their part in the Contract as it was no longer viable .. i think one day soon Zeiss may contract someone else (possible legal things like license agreements stopping then yet) to Make a licensed Contax probhably Cosina

 deleted_081301's gear list:deleted_081301's gear list
Olympus C-4000 Zoom Olympus E-300 Olympus PEN E-PL1s Sigma 10-20mm F4-5.6 EX DC HSM Samyang 8mm F3.5 Aspherical IF MC Fisheye +5 more
VLampa Senior Member • Posts: 1,030
Re: Anyone been following this article/thread on Oly?

pseudothomasmerton wrote:

I'm so glad you brought that up, because that was a HUGE mistake, and they need to get right back into the thick of things, pronto. The E-620, even now, is a jewel of a little camera, and as far as I'm concerned, still beats the pants off everything else out there in it's size/price range. Abandoning it after one iteration is complete lunacy.

Agreed.

As for the E-30, that has to be the worst selling DSLR in history. It didn't help that Olympus priced it like the E-3 when it first came out, a lot of people were scared away by it's cost. It's a wonderful camera, but only if you pay $800 for one.

That camera can stay dead, unless Oly can figure out how to price things correctly.

I doubt Olympus has the economies of scale working in their favor to price their offerings lower, unless they adopt the mentality that accessories and lenses are where the money's at, and not bodies. We'll see if this new head honcho can figure that out.

But here's what I'd do now:

HIGH-END: E-5, and it's eventual replacement, which needs to come in 12 to 18 months, not three years...

Yes please. Remains to be seen if Panasonic will give them access to their new sensor, though. It increasingly looks like Panasonic is content with keeping Olympus stuck with the same 12MP-er Panasonic uses for their lower-class models.

LOW-END 1: An updated E-620, with the same TruePic V+ and IQ enhancements of the E-5. They wouldn't even have to replace the sensor, just give users the E-5 IQ in an E-620 package and they'd sell like hotcakes

Price would be crucial in this case, especially now that all entry-level DSLRs from other makers except Pentax have flip screens. Of course, I'm reading that you plan for this to be a DSLR. I'm not at all privy to actual E-620 camera sales, but I'm guessing they didn't sell like pancakes (due to a lack of marketing, price, etc.), so something else has to change for your proposed updated E-620 to sell as such.

LOW-END 2: Bring back the well loved 500 series body, and do the same thing: put the 12 mp True-Pic V+ in it, and upgrade the focusing and VF. A camera like that would have a huge following! There are a lot of folks, even pro's, who really liked the 500 series, and would certainly go for an upgraded model if they can price it anywhere near being competitive.

I'm guessing this would be the equivalent of Canon's 1xxxD models? I'm not sure how popular the E-500 was, really, so I have my own personal doubts about the projected following for this camera you speak of. Perhaps E-500 owners can enlighten me regarding this model?

Then, just like in the days of the E-410, E-510 and E-3, you have three bodies with identical IQ, but now your paying for features. Canon is doing that same thing very successfully with that 18 mp sensor of theirs, and putting in anything with an EOS mount.

I see the sealing differentiating the pro model. How will the other two sort themselves out? IS vs. no-IS and flip screen vs. none?

However...another possible scenario, now that most of the E-620's and E-30's are gone of the dealer's shelves, is to bring in a mirrorless replacement for those two along the lines of the Sony SLT's. Keep the 4/3 mount of course.

In regards to micro 4/3, make the E_PLx the low-end, tweak the E-Px to serve the mid-range, and bring out a new camera with built-in EVF and all that to be a worthy competitor to the GH2.

For the compacts, keep the XZ-1, the Toughs, the superzooms, and get rid of everything else. Find a way to make a Tough superzoom, and a Tough XZ-1....that's a niche they need to exploit forcefully. Even if they could only make a weather/dust sealed superzoom, that would be something.

I agree. Olympus looks to have slacked off some on their strength as a tough digicam maker, as well as a fine superzoom maker, and now Fuji, Panasonic, Canon, and Pentax have been eroding away at Olympus' lead in those areas (with Nikon in hot pursuit in the superzoom market).

Hence, that's what Olympus needs to do: reposition the Pens as a high-level point & shoot, and drop the ridiculous notion that they are DSLR replacements, because in the minds of 95% of the consumers in the west, they are just oversized P&S with interchangeable lenses.

How do I know this would work? Because that's pretty much what Sony has done with their NEX series, and people are getting the message loud and clear. Unlike Olympus, Sony is very happily selling DSLR's right along with the NEX's, and taking money from both crowds.

Sony can afford to market NEX as a P&S replacement because their SLR/SLT line is still active and current. Olympus seems to have put all their eggs in the m4/3 basket (with only an E-5 as the lone new 4/3 development and no 4/3 lenses being developed lately - at least, as far as I know), so they have to make the proposition to consumers that m4/3 can replace both DSLRs and high-end compacts (and pro-level DSLRs, if rumors come true that a pro-level m4/3 will come later this year).

And rumor has it when Nikon introduces their mirrorless line, it will fall under the "CoolPix" name, which is exactly where it should be. Nikon and Sony are not going to be as stupid as Olympus. They know that it's the upgrading p&s users who are the target audience, not the DSLR enthusiasts.

Good marketing move, really (again, they have the benefit of having concurrent DSLR lines). Pros know enough to look at review sites and other resources when considering mirrorless systems to complement their main workhorses, so they don't need to be marketed to.

My 2 cents.

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads