Return 5D2 because of Low Iso Banding

Started Jul 15, 2010 | Discussions
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erikstefan Contributing Member • Posts: 821
Return 5D2 because of Low Iso Banding

Some people were asking me how I managed to return my 5D2, because they always had problems with the retailers, since the retailers are reluctant to give your money back, even though it is your rights at some points.

Another work around is to chargeback using your credit card company. Your transaction was with the retailer, not with Canon (the retailer should deal with Canon).

If you are happy with your camera then move on,.. this thread is not for you.

But if you are not happy and wish to return the 5D2 camera, UK government supports you to return the camera. http://consumerdirect.gov.uk/

First you have to send formal complaint letter to the retailer using Sales of Goods Act 1979
Some formal letter templates are here:
http://consumerdirect.gov.uk/
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=sales+of+goods+act+1979&fp=1

Then you contact and send letter to your credit company
(if you bought your 5D2 with credit card).
using Section 75 Chargeback
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases

http://www.choose.net/money/guide/articles/credit-cards/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act-guide.html
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1I7ADRA_en&q=chargeback+section+75

Keep your recorded delivery proof slip and all letters/documents and proof of purchase. The bank and retailer will ask for the copies of them. Don't send the original.

If everything fails you can go to Small Claim Court.

http://www.which.co.uk/advice/taking-a-dispute-to-the-small-claims-court/index.jsp

With the camera in your hand and all the test results and all of these forums on the net you can show the judge that the camera doesn't fit for purpose.

I hope this helps anyone who needs it.

Wish you good luck.

hunk
hunk Veteran Member • Posts: 3,227
overdone shadow recovery

A few of your examples were 'pushed' quite far. The last tree and the car look unnatural light. It looks like overdone shadow recovery in PS or LR. That said, I agree the 5DmkII has a nasty pattern in its deeper darks.

erikstefan wrote:

Some people were asking me how I managed to return my 5D2, because they always had problems with the retailers, since the retailers are reluctant to give your money back, even though it is your rights at some points.

Another work around is to chargeback using your credit card company. Your transaction was with the retailer, not with Canon (the retailer should deal with Canon).

If you are happy with your camera then move on,.. this thread is not for you.

But if you are not happy and wish to return the 5D2 camera, UK government supports you to return the camera. http://consumerdirect.gov.uk/

First you have to send formal complaint letter to the retailer using Sales of Goods Act 1979
Some formal letter templates are here:
http://consumerdirect.gov.uk/
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=sales+of+goods+act+1979&fp=1

Then you contact and send letter to your credit company
(if you bought your 5D2 with credit card).
using Section 75 Chargeback
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases

http://www.choose.net/money/guide/articles/credit-cards/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act-guide.html
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1I7ADRA_en&q=chargeback+section+75

Keep your recorded delivery proof slip and all letters/documents and proof of purchase. The bank and retailer will ask for the copies of them. Don't send the original.

If everything fails you can go to Small Claim Court.

http://www.which.co.uk/advice/taking-a-dispute-to-the-small-claims-court/index.jsp

With the camera in your hand and all the test results and all of these forums on the net you can show the judge that the camera doesn't fit for purpose.

I hope this helps anyone who needs it.

Wish you good luck.

 hunk's gear list:hunk's gear list
Leica M9 Canon Extender EF 2x II Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF
pandalee Veteran Member • Posts: 3,075
Re: overdone shadow recovery

hunk wrote:

A few of your examples were 'pushed' quite far. The last tree and the car look unnatural light. It looks like overdone shadow recovery in PS or LR. That said, I agree the 5DmkII has a nasty pattern in its deeper darks.

I thought so until I mainly switched to Nikon , Nikon has the same issue and I guess Nikon users are more blinded or more brand loyalists?

Also, there is high ISO blooming noise issue with D3 , D3s and D700 sensor.

and D700 build quality is also over rated , it borke in 3 months of light use suddenly and if you see my profile , you know my D3s broke in 5 days and Nikon refused to honor the international warranty its provided with the D3s.

well, for me no more Nikon unless Nikon fix my cameras soon.

the D700 popup flash is really a junk , easy to break and hard to fix.

so, be careful about Nikon trolls always making some crazy claims like D700 superb build quality or D700 has no noise at low ISO, BS.

the build of Canon 5D2 is actually tougher than the D700 , I have had both and only my D700 having many issues that Nikon refused to fix................they say it is normal................no.

get a Nikon and use a Nikon and you will also hate it , both are crappy as they get.

erikstefan wrote:

Some people were asking me how I managed to return my 5D2, because they always had problems with the retailers, since the retailers are reluctant to give your money back, even though it is your rights at some points.

Another work around is to chargeback using your credit card company. Your transaction was with the retailer, not with Canon (the retailer should deal with Canon).

If you are happy with your camera then move on,.. this thread is not for you.

But if you are not happy and wish to return the 5D2 camera, UK government supports you to return the camera. http://consumerdirect.gov.uk/

First you have to send formal complaint letter to the retailer using Sales of Goods Act 1979
Some formal letter templates are here:
http://consumerdirect.gov.uk/
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=sales+of+goods+act+1979&fp=1

Then you contact and send letter to your credit company
(if you bought your 5D2 with credit card).
using Section 75 Chargeback
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases

http://www.choose.net/money/guide/articles/credit-cards/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act-guide.html
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1I7ADRA_en&q=chargeback+section+75

Keep your recorded delivery proof slip and all letters/documents and proof of purchase. The bank and retailer will ask for the copies of them. Don't send the original.

If everything fails you can go to Small Claim Court.

http://www.which.co.uk/advice/taking-a-dispute-to-the-small-claims-court/index.jsp

With the camera in your hand and all the test results and all of these forums on the net you can show the judge that the camera doesn't fit for purpose.

I hope this helps anyone who needs it.

Wish you good luck.

John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 18,539
Re: overdone shadow recovery

hunk wrote:

A few of your examples were 'pushed' quite far.

What you call "quite far", is that based on the results, or the absolute amount of software gain? That "far" would not be a problem on many cameras, some much cheaper than the 5D2.

The last tree and the car look unnatural light. It looks like overdone shadow recovery in PS or LR. That said, I agree the 5DmkII has a nasty pattern in its deeper darks.

They don't even have to be that deep. Just 6 stops below RAW saturation, and 3 below middle gray (2 stops, with HTP), banding can be easily be the visually strongest texture in a smooth area of an image

-- hide signature --

John

pandalee Veteran Member • Posts: 3,075
Re: overdone shadow recovery

do you think the 5D3, which I believe is coming in OCt, will be almost banding free?

I am planning to sell all my Nikon if the 5D3 has no this horrible low ISO banding issue....but I prefer this type of noise over the Nikon extreme shadow blocking or black clipping , to hide the horrible shadow noise there actually is.

And the Nikon D700/D3s have the horrible high ISO blooming type of banding noise ,whcih is hard to correct.

I guess all cameras are bad and we have to pay this much to still compromise some or all................ridiculous but this is the reality until some one else starts buidling a better camera system.

John Sheehy wrote:

hunk wrote:

A few of your examples were 'pushed' quite far.

What you call "quite far", is that based on the results, or the absolute amount of software gain? That "far" would not be a problem on many cameras, some much cheaper than the 5D2.

The last tree and the car look unnatural light. It looks like overdone shadow recovery in PS or LR. That said, I agree the 5DmkII has a nasty pattern in its deeper darks.

They don't even have to be that deep. Just 6 stops below RAW saturation, and 3 below middle gray (2 stops, with HTP), banding can be easily be the visually strongest texture in a smooth area of an image

-- hide signature --

John

Vibrio Veteran Member • Posts: 4,004
you returned your camera because you can't process properly

suprised the company took that back since the problem is user not equipment.

be interested to know what you are going to do now since every camera will produce noise artifacts when you abuse them in PP?

erikstefan wrote:

Some people were asking me how I managed to return my 5D2, because they always had problems with the retailers, since the retailers are reluctant to give your money back, even though it is your rights at some points.

Another work around is to chargeback using your credit card company. Your transaction was with the retailer, not with Canon (the retailer should deal with Canon).

If you are happy with your camera then move on,.. this thread is not for you.

But if you are not happy and wish to return the 5D2 camera, UK government supports you to return the camera. http://consumerdirect.gov.uk/

First you have to send formal complaint letter to the retailer using Sales of Goods Act 1979
Some formal letter templates are here:
http://consumerdirect.gov.uk/
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=sales+of+goods+act+1979&fp=1

Then you contact and send letter to your credit company
(if you bought your 5D2 with credit card).
using Section 75 Chargeback
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases

http://www.choose.net/money/guide/articles/credit-cards/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act-guide.html
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1I7ADRA_en&q=chargeback+section+75

Keep your recorded delivery proof slip and all letters/documents and proof of purchase. The bank and retailer will ask for the copies of them. Don't send the original.

If everything fails you can go to Small Claim Court.

http://www.which.co.uk/advice/taking-a-dispute-to-the-small-claims-court/index.jsp

With the camera in your hand and all the test results and all of these forums on the net you can show the judge that the camera doesn't fit for purpose.

I hope this helps anyone who needs it.

Wish you good luck.

John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 18,539
Re: overdone shadow recovery

pandalee wrote:

do you think the 5D3, which I believe is coming in OCt, will be almost banding free?

I haven't seen any sign that Canon has any desire to address this issue. The 1D4 has the same problem as the 5D2, new for the 1D series. This should give an indication of how toxic all the Canon defenders really are. Canon probably cut new corners with the 1D4, knowing that the likes of fictional characters like "Viglio", "gdanmarshall", "bman4", and "SDU" will put all the complainers in their place.

I am planning to sell all my Nikon if the 5D3 has no this horrible low ISO banding issue....but I prefer this type of noise over the Nikon extreme shadow blocking or black clipping , to hide the horrible shadow noise there actually is.

You're confusing conversion styles with RAW data. The black-clipping of RAW data in Nikons is not an issue for most photography, even to pull shadows up a few stops. The association commonly made between Nikon RAW issues and the lack of color or detail in deep shadows of conversions is a mistake.

And the Nikon D700/D3s have the horrible high ISO blooming type of banding noise ,which is hard to correct.

Blooming is a CCD thing with saturated sensors, not common at high ISOs. Maybe it's an amplifier issue?

I guess all cameras are bad and we have to pay this much to still compromise some or all................ridiculous but this is the reality until some one else starts buidling a better camera system.

As long as companies manage to maintain good reputations, they have little incentive to step up the game.

-- hide signature --

John

David Hull
David Hull Veteran Member • Posts: 6,013
Re: overdone shadow recovery

pandalee wrote:

do you think the 5D3, which I believe is coming in OCt, will be almost banding free?

I am planning to sell all my Nikon if the 5D3 has no this horrible low ISO banding issue....but I prefer this type of noise over the Nikon extreme shadow blocking or black clipping , to hide the horrible shadow noise there actually is.

And the Nikon D700/D3s have the horrible high ISO blooming type of banding noise ,whcih is hard to correct.

I guess all cameras are bad and we have to pay this much to still compromise some or all................ridiculous but this is the reality until some one else starts buidling a better camera system.

YET.... Somehow, by some miricle, good photographers manage to take excellent, award winning photographs with ALL of these cameras. Competant photographers, who know what they are dioing use all of this gear with good results every day.

This is complete stupidity -- it reminds me of the story about the guy who went to the doctor and said "it hurts when I do this" to which the doctor replied: "well, then don't do that".

John Sheehy wrote:

hunk wrote:

A few of your examples were 'pushed' quite far.

What you call "quite far", is that based on the results, or the absolute amount of software gain? That "far" would not be a problem on many cameras, some much cheaper than the 5D2.

The last tree and the car look unnatural light. It looks like overdone shadow recovery in PS or LR. That said, I agree the 5DmkII has a nasty pattern in its deeper darks.

They don't even have to be that deep. Just 6 stops below RAW saturation, and 3 below middle gray (2 stops, with HTP), banding can be easily be the visually strongest texture in a smooth area of an image

-- hide signature --

John

 David Hull's gear list:David Hull's gear list
Canon EOS 50D Canon EOS 5D Mark III
ejmartin Veteran Member • Posts: 6,274
Re: overdone shadow recovery

David Hull wrote:

This is complete stupidity -- it reminds me of the story about the guy who went to the doctor and said "it hurts when I do this" to which the doctor replied: "well, then don't do that".

I find the following juxtaposition rather amusing. When users are asked what they would like most in the next camera, at or near the top of the list is usually "more dynamic range". Then when someone points out why their camera doesn't have more DR, and how easy it would be to fix, they are vilified.

-- hide signature --
David Hull
David Hull Veteran Member • Posts: 6,013
Re: overdone shadow recovery

John Sheehy wrote:

pandalee wrote:

do you think the 5D3, which I believe is coming in OCt, will be almost banding free?

I haven't seen any sign that Canon has any desire to address this issue. The 1D4 has the same problem as the 5D2, new for the 1D series. This should give an indication of how toxic all the Canon defenders really are. Canon probably cut new corners with the 1D4, knowing that the likes of fictional characters like "Viglio", "gdanmarshall", "bman4", and "SDU" will put all the complainers in their place.

I have yet to see this as a problem in any print that I have made from my 5DII. And... it seems that whenever anyone here wants to illustrate their "problem" they post something where the shadows are lifted 3 stops and the suspect area is blown up to a size which is unrealistic. The tree trunk example is typical. You would never see this so-caled "problem" in the real picture printed to size and viewed at a normal viewing distance. The issue is there when you zoom in, but who looks at a photo like that? You are asking Canon to fix something that is not a problem for photography, just pixel peepers.

I see no evidence of any issue in the first pair of photos or the full size tree trunk. For the rest fo them, I would like to see the full size print (or full photo on screen).

I am planning to sell all my Nikon if the 5D3 has no this horrible low ISO banding issue....but I prefer this type of noise over the Nikon extreme shadow blocking or black clipping , to hide the horrible shadow noise there actually is.

You're confusing conversion styles with RAW data. The black-clipping of RAW data in Nikons is not an issue for most photography, even to pull shadows up a few stops. The association commonly made between Nikon RAW issues and the lack of color or detail in deep shadows of conversions is a mistake.

And the Nikon D700/D3s have the horrible high ISO blooming type of banding noise ,which is hard to correct.

Blooming is a CCD thing with saturated sensors, not common at high ISOs. Maybe it's an amplifier issue?

I guess all cameras are bad and we have to pay this much to still compromise some or all................ridiculous but this is the reality until some one else starts buidling a better camera system.

As long as companies manage to maintain good reputations, they have little incentive to step up the game.

-- hide signature --

John

 David Hull's gear list:David Hull's gear list
Canon EOS 50D Canon EOS 5D Mark III
Eduardo del Solar Senior Member • Posts: 1,929
Re: overdone shadow recovery

pandalee wrote:

I thought so until I mainly switched to Nikon , Nikon has the same issue and I guess Nikon users are more blinded or more brand loyalists?

As someone that takes images primarily for printing at the 13 x 19 size I have never seen banding in prints from the 5DII. It looks like printers are not capable of reproducing such "value added service".

Does banding in the Nikon get reproduced in prints?

Eduardo

 Eduardo del Solar's gear list:Eduardo del Solar's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Sigma 35mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Canon EF 16-35mm f/4L IS USM Canon EF 100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS II
Vibrio Veteran Member • Posts: 4,004
Re: overdone shadow recovery

they are not vilified for wanting more ( I would like more DR in my next camera) they are shot down because the effects they are seeing are self inflicted not down to the camera.

ejmartin wrote:

I find the following juxtaposition rather amusing. When users are asked what they would like most in the next camera, at or near the top of the list is usually "more dynamic range". Then when someone points out why their camera doesn't have more DR, and how easy it would be to fix, they are vilified.

-- hide signature --
Shutyergob Regular Member • Posts: 208
You are the biggest troll on these forums

It's laughable the way you trash non-canon brands. Your work is below average and if you broke a D700 in 3 months, then get yourself evaluated.

Talk about delusional fanboys. Quite pathetic really!

ejmartin Veteran Member • Posts: 6,274
Re: overdone shadow recovery

Vibrio wrote:

they are not vilified for wanting more ( I would like more DR in my next camera) they are shot down because the effects they are seeing are self inflicted not down to the camera.

ROTFLMAO

You are funny! The 'effects they are seeing' are the manifestation of lack of usable DR. You are the poster boy for the crowd that wants more DR, but doesn't know what that means (both what it would take to have it, and why they don't have it now) -- and belittles those who do.

ejmartin wrote:

I find the following juxtaposition rather amusing. When users are asked what they would like most in the next camera, at or near the top of the list is usually "more dynamic range". Then when someone points out why their camera doesn't have more DR, and how easy it would be to fix, they are vilified.

-- hide signature --
BlueHotel Regular Member • Posts: 136
Re: Return 5D2 because of Low Iso Banding

Erik,

I've put the purchase of a 5DII on hold - waiting for the 5d3-, since I heard about this nasty banding stuff. Still, I'd like to see for my eyes what this is all about, as the 5D2 has been used by world class photographers (Paolo Pellegrin for example). So it can't be that bad, can it ? Hence, I'm confused to say the least.

Could you please share your original RAW file and drop it on a file sharing site ? I'd like to see for myself if I'm likely to hit the problem, based on the amount of PP needed to get them visible.
regards
Alexis

Ross Murphy Senior Member • Posts: 1,968
Re: overdone shadow recovery

All cameras are bad ? what ? I think you should give up photography, maybe try knitting or macrame, cameras are better than they ever have been, maybe you should look behind the camera for the problem.

pandalee wrote:

do you think the 5D3, which I believe is coming in OCt, will be almost banding free?

I am planning to sell all my Nikon if the 5D3 has no this horrible low ISO banding issue....but I prefer this type of noise over the Nikon extreme shadow blocking or black clipping , to hide the horrible shadow noise there actually is.

And the Nikon D700/D3s have the horrible high ISO blooming type of banding noise ,whcih is hard to correct.

I guess all cameras are bad and we have to pay this much to still compromise some or all................ridiculous but this is the reality until some one else starts buidling a better camera system.

John Sheehy wrote:

hunk wrote:

A few of your examples were 'pushed' quite far.

What you call "quite far", is that based on the results, or the absolute amount of software gain? That "far" would not be a problem on many cameras, some much cheaper than the 5D2.

The last tree and the car look unnatural light. It looks like overdone shadow recovery in PS or LR. That said, I agree the 5DmkII has a nasty pattern in its deeper darks.

They don't even have to be that deep. Just 6 stops below RAW saturation, and 3 below middle gray (2 stops, with HTP), banding can be easily be the visually strongest texture in a smooth area of an image

-- hide signature --

John

 Ross Murphy's gear list:Ross Murphy's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark III Nikon D810
Ross Murphy Senior Member • Posts: 1,968
Re: Return 5D2 because of Low Iso Banding

It is way overblown by a few people see my blog here. http://imagesinlightnw.blogspot.com/ 5D3 is 1 1/2 yrs away.

Ross

BlueHotel wrote:

Erik,

I've put the purchase of a 5DII on hold - waiting for the 5d3-, since I heard about this nasty banding stuff. Still, I'd like to see for my eyes what this is all about, as the 5D2 has been used by world class photographers (Paolo Pellegrin for example). So it can't be that bad, can it ? Hence, I'm confused to say the least.

Could you please share your original RAW file and drop it on a file sharing site ? I'd like to see for myself if I'm likely to hit the problem, based on the amount of PP needed to get them visible.
regards
Alexis

 Ross Murphy's gear list:Ross Murphy's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark III Nikon D810
Vibrio Veteran Member • Posts: 4,004
Re: overdone shadow recovery

ejmartin wrote:

Vibrio wrote:

they are not vilified for wanting more ( I would like more DR in my next camera) they are shot down because the effects they are seeing are self inflicted not down to the camera.

seriously stop talking so much rubbish. applying 3 stops of ec is not normal it's poor exposure then complaining about the artefacts is beyond stupid.

I am more than happy with my 5D2 and like most others I don't get this so called banding.

You are funny! The 'effects they are seeing' are the manifestation of lack of usable DR. You are the poster boy for the crowd that wants more DR, but doesn't know what that means (both what it would take to have it, and why they don't have it now) -- and belittles those who do.

ejmartin wrote:

I find the following juxtaposition rather amusing. When users are asked what they would like most in the next camera, at or near the top of the list is usually "more dynamic range". Then when someone points out why their camera doesn't have more DR, and how easy it would be to fix, they are vilified.

-- hide signature --
David Hull
David Hull Veteran Member • Posts: 6,013
Re: overdone shadow recovery

Vibrio wrote:

they are not vilified for wanting more ( I would like more DR in my next camera) they are shot down because the effects they are seeing are self inflicted not down to the camera.

Exactly. Out of the several examples that the OP put up, there are only two that show the whole scene and in both of those (where the whole scene is shown) there is no problem. The "problem" is only evident in the tree trunk in the zoomed shot. There is no DR issue in the real photo in either case that I can see.

The other examples, while they do show pattern noise, there is now way to tell if it is relevant since there is no reference to the full shot.

ejmartin wrote:

I find the following juxtaposition rather amusing. When users are asked what they would like most in the next camera, at or near the top of the list is usually "more dynamic range". Then when someone points out why their camera doesn't have more DR, and how easy it would be to fix, they are vilified.

-- hide signature --
 David Hull's gear list:David Hull's gear list
Canon EOS 50D Canon EOS 5D Mark III
ejmartin Veteran Member • Posts: 6,274
Re: overdone shadow recovery

ejmartin wrote:

I find the following juxtaposition rather amusing. When users are asked what they would like most in the next camera, at or near the top of the list is usually "more dynamic range". Then when someone points out why their camera doesn't have more DR, and how easy it would be to fix, they are vilified.

Vibrio wrote:

they are not vilified for wanting more ( I would like more DR in my next camera) they are shot down because the effects they are seeing are self inflicted not down to the camera.

ejmartin wrote:

You are funny! The 'effects they are seeing' are the manifestation of lack of usable DR. You are the poster boy for the crowd that wants more DR, but doesn't know what that means (both what it would take to have it, and why they don't have it now) -- and belittles those who do.

Vibrio wrote:

seriously stop talking so much rubbish. applying 3 stops of ec is not normal it's poor exposure then complaining about the artefacts is beyond stupid.

I am more than happy with my 5D2 and like most others I don't get this so called banding.

Then why did you say you want more DR? The limited usable DR of the 5D2 is more than enough for you.

Being able to lift the shadows without unacceptable noise is what it means to have more DR.

-- hide signature --
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