My 5D2 Has Low Iso Banding (2) Locked

Started Jul 6, 2010 | Discussions
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SallPitot Junior Member • Posts: 44
My 5D2 Has Low Iso Banding (2)

I still don't get satisfactory answers or clear opinion from previous thread.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=35709199&problem=max

I got the chance to come to the thread only twice, and the third time I came it was locked with 151 postings. ..... doh

As I said my 5D Mark II had banding at low iso. I made some tests and found vertical bandings on the dark area. Someone suggested to use dfine, it didn't work or blurry if setting to much banding removal.

Someone said my picture was adjusted from dark to bright, yes I did but at normal adjustment. Didn't everybody do adjustment in Photoshop or DPP?

Sometimes without adjustment the banding is there on a dark blue sky, or brown wood bushes, or plain dark red cars or shirt.

I am still waiting for response from the store regarding my complaint letter, as I planned to return the camera.

Anyway, thank's for the good advices.

Vibrio Veteran Member • Posts: 4,004
read the replys properly

the aritfacts you are seeing are induced because of the extreme post processing you applied not because there is a problem with the camera

SallPitot wrote:

I still don't get satisfactory answers or clear opinion from previous thread.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=35709199&problem=max

Andre Affleck Senior Member • Posts: 2,362
Re: read the replys properly

Vibrio wrote:

the aritfacts you are seeing are induced because of the extreme post processing you applied not because there is a problem with the camera

How do you know there isn't a problem with the camera? Do you think this is just an inherent limitation of the digital capture process common to all cameras or just an unfortunate shortcoming common to the 5DII?

Vibrio Veteran Member • Posts: 4,004
Re: read the replys properly

it is pretty clear from what he did to the shadows. if the camera was at fault we would see banding without PP.

Andre Affleck wrote:

Vibrio wrote:

the aritfacts you are seeing are induced because of the extreme post processing you applied not because there is a problem with the camera

How do you know there isn't a problem with the camera? Do you think this is just an inherent limitation of the digital capture process common to all cameras or just an unfortunate shortcoming common to the 5DII?

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,181
Certainly not an inherent limitation of digital capture

Andre Affleck wrote:

Vibrio wrote:

the aritfacts you are seeing are induced because of the extreme post processing you applied not because there is a problem with the camera

How do you know there isn't a problem with the camera? Do you think this is just an inherent limitation of the digital capture process common to all cameras or just an unfortunate shortcoming common to the 5DII?

Reading the non-exposed pixels at the border of the RAW image and correcting for their bias should provide an elegant software fix to that problem. And open a new world of possibilities to our (not always polite) friends on this board. Come on canon.

Andre Affleck Senior Member • Posts: 2,362
Re: read the replys properly

Do you think this is just an inherent limitation of the digital capture process common to all cameras or just an unfortunate shortcoming common to the 5DII?

Vibrio wrote:

it is pretty clear from what he did to the shadows. if the camera was at fault we would see banding without PP.

Andre Affleck wrote:

Vibrio wrote:

the aritfacts you are seeing are induced because of the extreme post processing you applied not because there is a problem with the camera

How do you know there isn't a problem with the camera? Do you think this is just an inherent limitation of the digital capture process common to all cameras or just an unfortunate shortcoming common to the 5DII?

Victor Engel Forum Pro • Posts: 17,127
Do you have a raw file available? -nt
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mailman88
mailman88 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,706
Re: cropped at 200%...300% viewing

... just to be fair, go and find a Canon MkIII or Nikon D3s pic and view it the same way. Cropping pics at 200,300,400% do you no justice. Viewing pic's at 100% should be used "ONLY" when sharpening your image.

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Tim in upstate NY
Tim in upstate NY Veteran Member • Posts: 7,120
Thank you mailman88

mailman88 wrote:

... just to be fair, go and find a Canon MkIII or Nikon D3s pic and view it the same way. Cropping pics at 200,300,400% do you no justice. Viewing pic's at 100% should be used "ONLY" when sharpening your image.

. . . It was relief when this OP's original thread maxed-out and now he wants to start it up all over again. Sheesh!

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Vibrio Veteran Member • Posts: 4,004
Re: read the replys properly

all cameras will do it degrees

you can't make somthing out of nothing

Andre Affleck wrote:

Do you think this is just an inherent limitation of the digital capture process common to all cameras or just an unfortunate shortcoming common to the 5DII?

Vibrio wrote:

it is pretty clear from what he did to the shadows. if the camera was at fault we would see banding without PP.

Andre Affleck wrote:

Vibrio wrote:

the aritfacts you are seeing are induced because of the extreme post processing you applied not because there is a problem with the camera

How do you know there isn't a problem with the camera? Do you think this is just an inherent limitation of the digital capture process common to all cameras or just an unfortunate shortcoming common to the 5DII?

Andreas Helke Senior Member • Posts: 1,204
Re: read the replys properly

If you brighten an image with dark parts you will see banding with every digital camera at every ISO setting. Its simply not possible to avoid the problem completely.

The latest sensors from Nikon and Canon seem to behave a bit better than older designs like the ones used in the 50D or 5D2.

I always thought that those two cameras had far too much pattern noise. To determine if the pattern noise you have is excessive or just normal for this camera you would need to create identical images with two different camera types or two different bodies of the same type.

vander
vander Senior Member • Posts: 2,462
Re: Listen.. with example

I'm not sure why you are bringing this thread up AGAIN, clearly you don't understand the limitations of processing an image.

First, let me say that even though the first image is a test image, the lighting and contrast of the photo is MUCH more pleasing than what you are even trying to achieve with your over-processed image. Why you'd want you image to even look like the second one, even without banding is crazy.

However, let me just shed some light onto this and maybe people might start to use better tools for their processing.

Look at the sample I provided. I quickly too your original image and brought it into Photoshop.. (last image of the 3 of them)

1st image is your original.
2nd is your monstrosity of a mess
3rd is trying to get close to what you "wanted" using a different tool.

Notice how I was able to significantly lighten the fruit, darken the glasses and introduced no visible "banding"?

Yes, it has patches of solid, pixelated colour, which is what is expected, but it has no banding.

I simply used the levels tool in Photoshop. Of course I had to use some layers in order to bring back and darken the glasses, but it was quickly done in minutes.

Different tools yield different results. I wouldn't doubt that it's more a software setting issue rather than the RAW file and camera limitations.

Try learning your processing tools rather than using an all-in-one slide bar.

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jsmiller Contributing Member • Posts: 823
Re: read the replys properly

Andreas Helke wrote:

If you brighten an image with dark parts you will see banding with every digital camera at every ISO setting. Its simply not possible to avoid the problem completely.

For what it is worth- probably extremely little!!- my new 550D does not show banding if I bring up extremely dark, very underexposed areas. All I see is random noise like film grain in the olden days. My 450 did show banding, which was extremely bad with HTP on. Even with HTP on, I don't see banding on my 550D.

In our CCD development laboratory we have seen banding-type noise over the years when a CCD is under development. It generally comes from the electronics. We always work on the electronics until we eliminate it, as we consider it unacceptable for the low light-level work our CCDs are intended for.

Whether someone finds the banding noise on the apple in the picture in this thread bothersome will depend on the person. On a normal print it won't be visible. I find it bothersome from a technical sense: it shouldn't be there. It is an artifact introduced by faulty processing of the original image on the sensor. It can be eliminated with the proper design/fabrication. But in practical terms how important is it? That's up to each individual to decide based on the kind of pictures they take and how they process them. That's why these threads go on for so long. People are trying to convince each other that their view is the correct one, when there can be multiple "correct" positions to take on this matter. I don't like banding because it is a correctable fault, I do low light-level imaging, and I am interested in technology. Others say it is a non-issue because it NEVER shows up on a properly-exposed image that they take. I won't argue with them. How could I? We are using different criteria for our judgements.

Joe

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,181
Re: read the replys properly

jsmiller wrote:

For what it is worth- probably extremely little!!- my new 550D does not show banding if I bring up extremely dark, very underexposed areas. All I see is random noise like film grain in the olden days. My 450 did show banding, which was extremely bad with HTP on. Even with HTP on, I don't see banding on my 550D.

It's actually an interesting observation, which would hint to the fact that banding is corrected on 550d generation sensors. Would also match the experience of 7D users experiencing little low iso banding.

jsmiller Contributing Member • Posts: 823
Re: My 5D2 Has Low Iso Banding (2)

Mr: SallPitot:

In my post above I did not attempt to answer your question. Here I will make an attempt. If your or anyone's camera shows banding and you are wondering what do about it, I suggest the following. Take a number of images of all kinds over several days. Use the camera as you intend to use it, if possible in as many different lighting situations as possible. Post-process the image for prints or however you would normally post-process them. Don't do it looking for banding, but do it to give the final images you want out of your camera. Then look at the images. Do you see banding in any of them? If so, is the banding detracting from the quality of the final image? Does it bother you? If it is, return the camera. Of course, in several days of shooting you may not test all possibilities, and some future shots may not be acceptable, but this would be a start.

I think you already know the answer. You processed the picture of the fruits to YOUR liking (that's all that counts), and it shows banding at a level you do not like. It should go back.

Joe

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Ross Murphy Senior Member • Posts: 1,968
Re: My 5D2 Has Low Iso Banding (2)

You just dint hear the answer you wanted to hear

SallPitot wrote:

I still don't get satisfactory answers or clear opinion from previous thread.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=35709199&problem=max

I got the chance to come to the thread only twice, and the third time I came it was locked with 151 postings. ..... doh

As I said my 5D Mark II had banding at low iso. I made some tests and found vertical bandings on the dark area. Someone suggested to use dfine, it didn't work or blurry if setting to much banding removal.

Someone said my picture was adjusted from dark to bright, yes I did but at normal adjustment. Didn't everybody do adjustment in Photoshop or DPP?

Sometimes without adjustment the banding is there on a dark blue sky, or brown wood bushes, or plain dark red cars or shirt.

I am still waiting for response from the store regarding my complaint letter, as I planned to return the camera.

Anyway, thank's for the good advices.

Image's In Light
http://rossmurphy.zenfolio.com/
http://imagesinlightnw.blogspot.com/

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zappa1976 Regular Member • Posts: 493
Sell it.

Sell it.
As said by John Sheehy, G11 is better in HDR. (i can link the post..)
Power shot, G10, G11, iphone and all Dsrl Are much better especially at low iso.
5D2 is only for people than like bands.

vander
vander Senior Member • Posts: 2,462
LOL

Oh, yes. I forgot. If we all just listened to John Sheehy to begin with, none of us would be stuck with this POS camera we have that takes terrible photos.

I've just entered 3 high contrast images in an art show at 18x25 and I've yet to see a hint of this "banding" problem. Maybe it's because I know how to process an image properly and not rely on "out of the box" sliders to adjust everything and my expectations are realistic when it comes to capturing light in a photo.

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endus Contributing Member • Posts: 864
Once again

Once again we see someone's technique failing and blaming the camera for it.

No, the rest of us (i.e. those who don't have issues with banding) don't try to push images by a couple of stops to get more shadow detail...we shoot a properly exposed frame instead.
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RedFox88 Forum Pro • Posts: 26,358
Buy a GND filter or bracket shots for HDR processing

Buy a GND filter or bracket shots for HDR processing. You are expecting too much out of a scene with more range of light than digital imaging sensors can capture in a single exposure.

Learn the fundamentals of photography and stop pushing shadows 3 stops and expecting them to look as good as your highlights!

P.S. Try taking photos of something else, I'm really getting sick of photos of your breakfast!

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