A rumour from PMA Australia

Started Jun 6, 2010 | Discussions
justin23 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,347
A rumour from PMA Australia

I overheard the CRK rep tell a guy that the K20D replacement (not called the K30D) will be 21 megapixels and announced around photokina.

sounds like too many pixels to me and may not be true of course.
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Justin
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pundit Senior Member • Posts: 1,477
????

???

I asked the guys on the CR Kennedy stand about a new Pentax DSLR and not one of them could shed any light at all.
Besides, don't you mean the K-7's replacement?

This sounds kinda nuts to me.

On one hand I can the see corporate 'suits' thinking they'll have compete with the Canon 7D's 18mp but any new flagship Pentax DSLR will probably need to be one stop better in ISO performance and have better DR than the entry level K-x which means it will need to be two stops better than the K-7.

And if that's based on a 21mp APS-C sensor I'm sure some rumours would have leaked out by now that some kind of new sensor technology has been developed.

Pentax will also need to address tethering and their flash system on the next model.

If they don't at least begin to touch the Pro end of the market they'll leave no upgrade path for many of their existing customers and I predict the exodus to Canikon will begin to accelerate.

As it appears I will not lose money if I was to liquidate my Japanese FA Limiteds I may just be one of those who does wind up with not the next Pentax, but the D700's replacement.

justin23 wrote:

I overheard the CRK rep tell a guy that the K20D replacement (not called the K30D) will be 21 megapixels and announced around photokina.

sounds like too many pixels to me and may not be true of course.
--
Justin
--------------------------------------------------------
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http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/justin-23/

Douglas Film Veteran Member • Posts: 5,687
Re: A rumour from PMA Australia

21 mp on an APSC sensor that can't be a good thing.

Douglas Film

Neil Morgan Senior Member • Posts: 1,243
Re: A rumour from PMA Australia

HAHA ! FF at last !!!

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ManuH
ManuH Veteran Member • Posts: 3,898
21MP could be a good thing

pundit wrote:

And if that's based on a 21mp APS-C sensor I'm sure some rumours would have leaked out by now that some kind of new sensor technology has been developed.

When Pentax had the highest MP APS-C camera (K20D, 14.6MP) the information leaked only very close to the release date.

21MP is quite possible, on a 1.53x crop format it would have about the same pixel density as the Canon 7D (1.6x crop format). And I'm pretty sure the good glass like the Limited can take advantage of such resolution. And noise performance is not necessarily connected to pixel density.

pundit Senior Member • Posts: 1,477
Re: 21MP could be a good thing

You'd better let Nikon know as I'm sure they have no idea about pixel density and the reason why the D700 is selling so well!

ManuH wrote:

And noise performance is not necessarily connected to pixel density.

pundit Senior Member • Posts: 1,477
Re: Neil

I wouldn't hold your breath.

At a pinch I would expect an APS-C format sensor of around 18mp with K-x performance.
That's about the most I think we'll see as far as sensors are concerned.

However if the K-7's replacement includes tethering, better AF, 1/250th sync and a better implemented flash system (CLS style) then I'll be happy enough.

As for FF?... maybe something in around two years if the global economy hasn't totally tanked and Hoya hasn't dropped Pentax which is still very much on the cards with further economic downturn on the way.

But by then I think Nikon and Canon maybe the only two manufacturers of DSLR's.
Everyone else will likely be concentrating on EVIL's... Pentax included.

Neil Morgan wrote:

HAHA ! FF at last !!!

Winder Senior Member • Posts: 1,546
Re: 21MP could be a good thing

pundit wrote:

You'd better let Nikon know as I'm sure they have no idea about pixel density and the reason why the D700 is selling so well!

ManuH wrote:

And noise performance is not necessarily connected to pixel density.

His statement is correct. They are necessarily connected. Just because you increase pixel density does not mean you increase noise. Canon has increased density (in the case of the 5D doubled it) and still reduced noise. If you have a situation where two cameras have the same S/N profile but different pixel density then the camera with the greater density will look better. The detail will be better and the noise that is present will look better. Since noise is generated at pixel level smaller pixels generate smaller (fine grain) noise. When a larger photosite generates noise it looks blotchy and is more noticeable.

I doubt we will see a 21MP Pentax. Pentax buys sensors and I am not aware of any manufacturer who is making 21MP APS-C sensors. Hopefully Pentax is sticking with Sony sensors and we will see the new 15MP Sony sensor in the new K-7.

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Douglas Film Veteran Member • Posts: 5,687
Re: Neil

Oh the glory days of the 1970's when there were so many film slr choices. Today I know so many people that I have purchased a Canon DSLR because they are a big company and should be around for ever. It will be interesting to see if Pentax can survive as a niche brand.

I think apart from Oly with their 4/3 system that anyone who wants to be a major player must have a ff offering. Now If Pentax could sell the 645D worldwide and have a ff camera even without shake reduction they would have a cance.

Douglas Film

godfrog Senior Member • Posts: 1,463
Re: A rumour from PMA Australia

I never understood the "it has too many megapixels" thing. Where does this misguided hate for megapixels come from? The K20D had the most megapixels of any APS-C camera when it was launched, yet had absolute top image quality at the time. The D3X and A900/A850 have the highest megapixel counts among FF sensors, yet they are the kings of image quality. A P65+ MF back has the highest megapixel sensor ever put in a commercial camera (non scanning) and it has enough dynamic range and color depth to receive the highest DXOMark sensor rating ever. The 7D which packs 18 megapixels into a sensor smaller than the ones Pentax use still manages to beat the praised K-x in low light.

Fine, we get it already, you want to feel proud of yourself because you saw though the marketing hype a couple of years ago that made sunday snappers believe cameras were about megapixels. That has nothing to do with much higher grade cameras made today, a sensor is not bad because it has many megapixels, and there are plenty of examples of that. Those saying "focus on image quality" blah blah, you only get to complain if a sensor actually has bad image quality. For all you know they never had to drag a slider between "pixels" and "image quality".

Now if that rumor is true or not? Sounds pretty far out to me, I would not hold my breath...

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jeiked Regular Member • Posts: 199
Re: A rumour from PMA Australia

That is one angry frog.
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Jack Johnson

godfrog Senior Member • Posts: 1,463
Re: A rumour from PMA Australia

jeiked wrote:

That is one angry frog.

Haha sorry about that. Im hoping to become a grumpy old man (with a high megapixel camera) one day.

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A Schamber Senior Member • Posts: 1,068
Not a dream come true, but...

I want a better flash system, and better other things before 21 mp. Just buy the 15 mp sensor of Sony, and we will all be happy.
Concentrate on the rest of the system.
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Progress is not possible without deviation from the norm - Frank Zappa

Deleted1929 Forum Pro • Posts: 13,050
Re: 21MP could be a good thing

Just because you increase pixel density does not mean you increase noise. Canon has increased density (in the case of the 5D doubled it) and still reduced noise

That is simply wrong. It flies in the face of physics.

Canon doubled the number of pixels on the 5D2 relative to the 5D, but the area per pixel on the 5D2 is still more than ALL the existing Pentax cameras ( including the K-x ).

And for the record the Canon 7D has an area-per-pixel that's smaller than all the existing Pentax systems and, by all accounts, is noisier that all Pentax systems.

And it's worth pointing out that the smaller the area-per-pixel the more prone to diffraction issues a sensor is going to be. You just don't get any practical benefit from more than 12Mp or so on crop-frame sensors.

The only people a 21 Mp Pentax would be a good thing for are Canon and Nikon.

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ManuH
ManuH Veteran Member • Posts: 3,898
Re: 21MP could be a good thing

Winder wrote:

I doubt we will see a 21MP Pentax. Pentax buys sensors and I am not aware of any manufacturer who is making 21MP APS-C sensors.

We didn't know about the 14.6MP sensor either when it first appeared. For all we know a 21MP APS-C sensor could be the second generation of their sensor line.

godfrog Senior Member • Posts: 1,463
Re: 21MP could be a good thing

sjgcit wrote:

Just because you increase pixel density does not mean you increase noise. Canon has increased density (in the case of the 5D doubled it) and still reduced noise

That is simply wrong. It flies in the face of physics.

Canon doubled the number of pixels on the 5D2 relative to the 5D, but the area per pixel on the 5D2 is still more than ALL the existing Pentax cameras ( including the K-x ).

At the same size (print or screen), the 5Dmk2 has much less noise than the 5D. It also has more detail. There is no real situation in which the 5D sensor is better.

And for the record the Canon 7D has an area-per-pixel that's smaller than all the existing Pentax systems and, by all accounts, is noisier that all Pentax systems.

By all accounts? Let me guess, someone downloading two pictures, zooming to 100% and perhaps noticing more noise. That is a stupid way to make a comparison. Printed at the same size or viewed at the same size the 7D has better performance than all Pentax cameras in low light, less noise. DXOMark, people that actually know how to compare sensors, found this as well, rating the high-ISO performance of the 7D ahead of all Pentax cameras including the K-x.

And it's worth pointing out that the smaller the area-per-pixel the more prone to diffraction issues a sensor is going to be. You just don't get any practical benefit from more than 12Mp or so on crop-frame sensors.

Sure, diffraction is a limit. In many shots you are not limited by diffraction and the higher megapixel sensor will have higher detail. Sometimes you are diffraction limited and both a lower and higher megapixel sensor will resolve the same detail. Not a very difficult choice now is it?

The only people a 21 Mp Pentax would be a good thing for are Canon and Nikon.

No.

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Winder Senior Member • Posts: 1,546
Re: 21MP could be a good thing

sjgcit wrote:

Just because you increase pixel density does not mean you increase noise. Canon has increased density (in the case of the 5D doubled it) and still reduced noise

That is simply wrong. It flies in the face of physics.

Care to share some of your great physics knowledge. Maybe you can pass on some knowledge to engineers at Canon and Sony as they have been pretty successful at reducing the S/N ratio of cameras while increasing MPs.

Just because you increase MP does not necessarily mean you reduce the size of the photosite.

Canon doubled the number of pixels on the 5D2 relative to the 5D, but the area per pixel on the 5D2 is still more than ALL the existing Pentax cameras ( including the K-x ).

My statement comparing the 5D and the 5DII have nothing to do with "ALL the existing Pentax cameras".

And for the record the Canon 7D has an area-per-pixel that's smaller than all the existing Pentax systems and, by all accounts, is noisier that all Pentax systems.

By all accounts? Care to name a few?

And it's worth pointing out that the smaller the area-per-pixel the more prone to diffraction issues a sensor is going to be. You just don't get any practical benefit from more than 12Mp or so on crop-frame sensors.

Diffraction is not a brick wall barrier, and 12MP 4/3 sensors have been in use for several years. Diffraction is not an issue with my E-3.

The only people a 21 Mp Pentax would be a good thing for are Canon and Nikon.

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StephenG

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Winder Senior Member • Posts: 1,546
Re: 21MP could be a good thing

ManuH wrote:

Winder wrote:

I doubt we will see a 21MP Pentax. Pentax buys sensors and I am not aware of any manufacturer who is making 21MP APS-C sensors.

We didn't know about the 14.6MP sensor either when it first appeared. For all we know a 21MP APS-C sensor could be the second generation of their sensor line.

Which 14.6 MP Samsung sensor are you referring to? The K20 version or the K-7 version? We knew Samsung had the sensor. The questions was would it be used by Pentax. Like the Sony sensor in the K-x. We knew Sony had it and it is in use in other cameras, but we did not know it would be used by Pentax.

There is not a 21MP APS-C sensor in any manufacturers line-up. While it is possible there is a super secret 21MP sensor under development I doubt it. If you make sensors for other people you have to let other people know what you are making. If Pentax had the ability to make sensors in-house then anything goes. Since they buy from 3rd party they have to shop around and buy what is available. Right now Canon and Pansonic are the only ones producing sensors in the pixel density of a 21MP 1.5 crop sensor.

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yana36 Contributing Member • Posts: 973
Re: A rumour from PMA Australia

justin23 wrote:

I overheard the CRK rep tell a guy that the K20D replacement (not called the K30D) will be 21 megapixels and announced around photokina.

sounds like too many pixels to me and may not be true of course.
--
Justin
--------------------------------------------------------
Photobucket
http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/justin-23/

21 MP is good for FF.

Pete Dee Veteran Member • Posts: 3,759
Re: A rumour from PMA Australia

godfrog wrote:

I never understood the "it has too many megapixels" thing. Where does this misguided hate for megapixels come from? The K20D had the most megapixels of any APS-C camera when it was launched, yet had absolute top image quality at the time. The D3X and A900/A850 have the highest megapixel counts among FF sensors, yet they are the kings of image quality. A P65+ MF back has the highest megapixel sensor ever put in a commercial camera (non scanning) and it has enough dynamic range and color depth to receive the highest DXOMark sensor rating ever. The 7D which packs 18 megapixels into a sensor smaller than the ones Pentax use still manages to beat the praised K-x in low light.

Fine, we get it already, you want to feel proud of yourself because you saw though the marketing hype a couple of years ago that made sunday snappers believe cameras were about megapixels. That has nothing to do with much higher grade cameras made today, a sensor is not bad because it has many megapixels, and there are plenty of examples of that. Those saying "focus on image quality" blah blah, you only get to complain if a sensor actually has bad image quality. For all you know they never had to drag a slider between "pixels" and "image quality".

Now if that rumor is true or not? Sounds pretty far out to me, I would not hold my breath...

All that aside a consumer level camera still has to find some sort of balance, 21MP files will be huge and take a lot to process, just how big do we need to be able to print 6x4 photos anyway?

Cheers.

Pete

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