HX5 let´s play Devil´s Advocate

Started Apr 15, 2010 | Discussions
chupame Regular Member • Posts: 453
HX5 let´s play Devil´s Advocate

For everybody who is not familiar with the meaning of the headline, you slip in the role of your opposite and argue from his point of view.
In this case, what are the bad points of the HX5?

This is not about bashing a fine product but to be brutal honest in naming facts.
Feel free to add your thoughts as a Devil´s Advocate.

Again, this is not a discussion - but that feature is not really so bad, in the camera xy it is much worse - this is about all the shortcomings of the HX5 what you notice and would like to have changed if you could.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So far I have been quite impressed with the Sony Hx5. All the pictures, videos, information from users and reviews.

Every time something was a bit not so right I have looked for a solution or if no solution was possible for an excuse why this feature was not so important for me.

Then I saw this comparison and I really could not longer tell me that this could be easily fixed in post processing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSaMdCZpE74&feature=player_embedded

To see if that might be a problem with the EXMOR sensor and the Sony processing I took my HX1 and my old Canon S2IS shot a couple clips and took screen grabs.

As you can see the S2 has much more noise, but it looks much worse in a single frame than in the video (it is a bit like the HHT the grain cancels it self out partially).

So now that we established that the EXMOR sensor is not good at low light all the fancy low light modes start to make sense.

HHT and AMB are just software tricks to hide the bad low light performance of the EXMOR sensor and the EXMOR R does not deliver either, in fact I do not see a visible improvement to my HX1.

So what is it with the fuss about the soft (read not so sharp) pictures and why do we have a barrel distortion in wide angle movie mode but not in picture mode?
Is it because the G lens is maybe not so good?

So the pictures get processed and unbend in wide angle so everything is straight but the processing power is not enough to do that in video mode too?

How about putting more engineering into the G lens so there are not to fancy hard and software tricks necessary to get a halfway decent result.

Talking about halfway decent results, what was the big idea in not giving the customer any way to modify the picture setting? No sharpen the way I want , no contrast the way I want, no color the way I want. Sony if you put in a sensor who has known problems with color and contrast and brightness in low light how about giving the customer a leg up at least to tweak the setting so it is half way bearable?

I know it is just a fancy point and shoot, but would a full manual with a real iris have been so hard to engineer into the new lens array?

The HX5 has already the shortest zoom range, and even Samsung could manage to squeeze a 15x zoom into the same size with a real iris.

Also why do we have in 2010 to accept a 3" screen with only 230k dots while other travel zoom cameras have already a much higher resolution, brightness and viewing angle in their 2009 models? Ricoh can, Panasonic can, Samsung can, even Canon starts to think.

And let´s not forget there is a thing called AMOLED display available since a while.

We always heard that the Megapixel race is not good for the image quality. Then how is it possible that the 14 MP cameras have sharper fotos than the 10 MP EXMOR?

Wait there was something, last year when I did my take on the Canon Sx1 and SX10 there was the thing that the much cheaper SX10 with the ccd made sharper pictures than the SX1 with the cmos. We are talking identical cameras and lenses here just different sensors and firmware.

Is that the reason why Canon quietly let the SX2 die? Well the SX10 was a joke anyway with just VGA as a movie mode in 2009 in a superzoom.

But you yous always try, don´t you. There is always the flashy new thingy you show us but under the hood you often do things what are not in our best interest, because next year you want to sell the feature you just willingly crippled the camera with.

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OP chupame Regular Member • Posts: 453
Re: HX5 let´s play Devil´s Advocate

I understand the need of a connector at the bottom to use the fancy party shot - BUT the party shot is not available for the HX5 and even Samsung got it that this is a bad idea and changed from proprietary connector at the bottom to a full HDMI connector behind a sturdy hinged door.

An easy on/off switch at least in the main menu would have been nice for the GPS function.

Who did design the microphone placement? Directly where you tut your finger and just together, come om how hard would it be to have one on the left corner and on on the right corner out of the fingers way and put a bit of foam in front of them INSIDE the casing?
No you were just too lazy to go the extra mile.

Is it so hard to put a decent flash into the camera? So it might get a bit bigger, but who cares when you can cram better features inside.

It is not the problem in paying a few dollars more, look at the TZ10 - the charge 50$ more and people still buy it.

The movie button is a nice idea but Canon had that already with the S1 in 2004 so dedicated buttons are nice how about to have at least one where we can put ANY function we like?

Why do you call a silver camera gold and why did you choose HX5 because the HX1 is a totally different camera so the HX5 is not the 5th generation of the HX1.

Sony, you finally got it that cramming your proprietary products down the users throat backfires mostly and you now have the SD card embraced. BUT what about that unhandy octopus cable you still force the user to use for just a usb connection to the computer?

And that stupid dongle we have to use if we want to connect to HDMI? Isn´t is much cheaper to just have a standard connector and there would be no need for these unnecessary cables and adapters?

What is the idea in giving us a ultra slow charging charger except to force people to get a faster one and pay you for it.

So where were we? - Oh yes Devil´s Advocat, right.
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Tom Hoots
Tom Hoots Veteran Member • Posts: 6,072
How about applying some perspective?

chupame wrote:

So now that we established that the EXMOR sensor is not good at low light....

You might define "not so good." Are you just referring to how the HX5 exposures are simply darker than the others?

If so, then the perspective would be that "some photography might be in order," and the HX5 allows the photographer to adjust exposure compensation in order to get the exposure he or she wants. There's nothing more to it than that.

HHT and AMB are just software tricks to hide the bad low light performance of the EXMOR sensor and the EXMOR R does not deliver either, in fact I do not see a visible improvement to my HX1.

"Software tricks" they may be, but again, the perspective here is in regards to whether they solve some of the problems inherent in compact cameras -- poor high-ISO image quality, and an inability in some situations to freeze action, as compared to typical DSLR performance. Do these modes not deliver in both of these regards? And let's mention the HDR mode -- does that not also effectively improve upon another small-sensor problem, that of limited dynamic range?

How about putting more engineering into the G lens so there are not to fancy hard and software tricks necessary to get a halfway decent result.

Because then you'd have a camera the size of the HX1. And the HX5 has a wider wide end than even the HX1. Very simply, every camera ever made has some combination of compromises, and we're talking about essentially the lowest-priced and smallest end of the camera spectrum here. For instance, I have a moderately-expensive roughly 3x lens for my DSLR that costs about three times as much as an HX5, and it's about three times bigger than the HX5.

Bottom line, you can get better lenses. But they've got to make some huge compromises to get such a lens range into such a small camera at such a low price as it exists within the HX5.

Talking about halfway decent results, what was the big idea in not giving the customer any way to modify the picture setting?

I certainly agree that Sony is just insane here. They have built such controls into previous, and even less-expensive models. Other manufacturers have been including even more flexibile controls into their cheapest cameras, than they've ever done before. It just appears that Sony thinks these are "snapshot" cameras, and that its customers aren't even interested in such controls.

And so on. It's just one camera on the market. Amongst many competitors that you may or may not find more worth your money. The best you can do is to make the choice that meets your needs the best.

Tom Hoots
http://thoots.zenfolio.com
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4330317199/albums

Bill Eadie Regular Member • Posts: 379
Re: How about applying some perspective?

Sony takes things back like the picture settings it's had in previous models and leaves things out like 1080P in the HX5 and TX7 so it has something new to sell us in the coming years. It wouldn't surprise me if these functions are waiting to be turned on in the current Bionz processor.

OP chupame Regular Member • Posts: 453
Re: How about applying some perspective?

why is it so hard to understand the concept of Devil´s Advocate, I thought I explained it on top of my first post?

maybe WIKI can explain better:

"In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with for the sake of argument. This process can also be used to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure."
--
http://hx5v.blogspot.com/

DanK♂ FP6900 Regular Member • Posts: 462
Re: Ok

What I find silly is that people buy a dc and first test shots are always indoors of their remotes, couches or pets with bad lighting and without flash. Then they start getting disappointed even more when they start pixel peep... but the reality is that 90% of the time people take pictures during daylight, so it's not representative. I could care less if I can't take a sharp picture without flash of my remote control or a couch. I knew that Sony (and pretty much every other P&S) wasn't great for low light and I still bought one for other reasons.

BertIverson Veteran Member • Posts: 3,605
Exactly DanK -- Re: Ok

DanK♂ FP6900 wrote:

What I find silly is that people buy a dc and first test shots are always indoors of their remotes, couches or pets with bad lighting and without flash. Then they start getting disappointed even more when they start pixel peep... but the reality is that 90% of the time people take pictures during daylight, so it's not representative. I could care less if I can't take a sharp picture without flash of my remote control or a couch. I knew that Sony (and pretty much every other P&S) wasn't great for low light and I still bought one for other reasons.

Exactly. I am getting the HX5V for: (1) 10FPS (2) HD Video (3) 0.3 focus speed (from IR) It has other features I will probably find useful but indoor-available light pictures - no so much.
Bert

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DavePlugh Senior Member • Posts: 1,421
Ok. Here's a couple

Conversion Lenses. Or lack thereof. I do closeups from time to time and like to be able to attach a closeup lens. Or a tele or a wide for that matter.

Depth of Field: Without a true aperture its nearly impossible to control DOF. And that's especially true when doing macros or closeups.

Other than that I can't say.

Dave

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Marti58
MOD Marti58 Forum Pro • Posts: 22,815
lack of manual image parameter settings..nt
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Ach3r0n Contributing Member • Posts: 582
Re: Ok

That may be the focus of this particular discussion but the Sony's daytime video has been less than impressive in many of the samples posted online. Sure it's possible that all of these people screwed up something with settings, but it starts to make you wonder when you see it over and over and over.

Trafford
Trafford Veteran Member • Posts: 8,255
Re: Ok. Here's a couple

DavePlugh wrote:

Conversion Lenses. Or lack thereof. I do closeups from time to time and like to be able to attach a closeup lens. Or a tele or a wide for that matter.

There is a universal adapter available for most small cameras,
screws into the tripod socket and is adjustable in/out and up/down.

Dan Kramer Regular Member • Posts: 398
Re: Ok

Can you post links to a few bad daytime video clips? (Should be easy, since you are seeing them over and over and over.) I've only seen pretty impressive video clips (at least for daytime / good light).

Ach3r0n wrote:

That may be the focus of this particular discussion but the Sony's daytime video has been less than impressive in many of the samples posted online. Sure it's possible that all of these people screwed up something with settings, but it starts to make you wonder when you see it over and over and over.

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DavePlugh Senior Member • Posts: 1,421
Re: Ok. Here's a couple

Trafford wrote:
There is a universal adapter available for most small cameras,
screws into the tripod socket and is adjustable in/out and up/down.

Are you referring to a conversion lens ? Or were you referring to a focusing rail ?

I've never heard of a lens attached in that fashion. If so have you link for one?

Dave

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Trafford
Trafford Veteran Member • Posts: 8,255
Re: Ok. Here's a couple

DavePlugh wrote:

Trafford wrote:
There is a universal adapter available for most small cameras,
screws into the tripod socket and is adjustable in/out and up/down.

Are you referring to a conversion lens ? Or were you referring to a focusing rail ?

I've never heard of a lens attached in that fashion. If so have you link for one?

Dave

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DavePlugh Senior Member • Posts: 1,421
Re: Ok. Here's a couple

I've never seen one of these universal adapters before. I'm used to a Sony camera having thread around the lens housing into which an adapter tube is screwed in. And then a conversion lens screwed into that.

Obviously, since the HX5 doesn't have threads around the lens housing, the above mechanics don't apply.

I wonder if any forum members have tried one? And which conversion lens they attached? And how did the shots turn out?

Be interesting if a HX5 user tried one out and told us how it worked out.

Dave

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Tom Hoots
Tom Hoots Veteran Member • Posts: 6,072
Re: How about applying some perspective?

chupame wrote:

why is it so hard to understand the concept of Devil´s Advocate, I thought I explained it on top of my first post?

Not hard at all. But then again, you didn't address some issues I raised, like for instance, what's so "wrong" with the image quality you were criticizing the HX5 for. Was it indeed just because it returned a darker exposure than another camera?

And a few other issues I responded to were virtually "laws of physics" -- gosh, why shouldn't the HX5 have the same image quality as a $5,000 DSLR body with a $10,000 lens?

And so on.

Tom Hoots
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Dan Kramer Regular Member • Posts: 398
Re: How about applying some perspective?

Tom Hoots wrote:

And a few other issues I responded to were virtually "laws of physics" -- gosh, why shouldn't the HX5 have the same image quality as a $5,000 DSLR body with a $10,000 lens?

It should not? Why???

Bob the Printer Veteran Member • Posts: 3,034
Re: HX5 let´s play Devil´s Advocate

Call if what you will (devil's advocate?? yeah, sure), but what you are engaging in is HX5v bashing, pure and simple.

I for one, will NOT click on anymore of your threads.
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Have a SAFE and HAPPY 2010 !

Bob the Printer

zchymalaga Forum Member • Posts: 96
Re: HX5 let´s play Devil´s Advocate

I think "Chupame"-at the end- is going to buy this camera, but maybe. he likes me, thought that all nice ads on papers about the camera woulld be the same in the real life.

I think he has investigated more than most of the people, has a nice blog about this camera, the problem is when you investigate too much something you also discover the bad things it has. Hx5v is no perfect at all, all of us should Know this, but most of us finally choose this camera, and buy it, because it is great.

Thanks to "chupame" we have more information about this camera.

I like a lot all the post of Mr. Hoots, he is great!

OP chupame Regular Member • Posts: 453
Re: HX5 let´s play Devil´s Advocate

zchy you got it, we always in Europe forget that the education is a bit different outside our countries.

I saw with the reaction that almost none was grasping the concept, so I tried a different approach with my hx6 thread.

and yes TH did some very good explaining, i always read his posting with interest.

so sorry about the DA next time i try to keep it simpler

greez from GC to malaga

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