Swellable papers for dye ink?

Started Feb 25, 2010 | Discussions
Midnighter Senior Member • Posts: 1,727
Swellable papers for dye ink?

I have been looking around for swellable papers to use for A3+ sized glass framed dye based display prints. However it would seem that the inkjet market has all but abandoned the older technology of slow drying dye-suited swellable paper in favour of instant dry ceramic paper.... which is great for pigment... but not ideal for dye permanence.

I have scoured the internet... but the only papers I have found that are swellable media are Ilford Classic gloss and Classic Pearl and HP Premium Plus photo paper.

Does anyone know of others?

Dominic.Chan Veteran Member • Posts: 6,168
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

Midnighter wrote:

I have been looking around for swellable papers to use for A3+ sized glass framed dye based display prints. However it would seem that the inkjet market has all but abandoned the older technology of slow drying dye-suited swellable paper in favour of instant dry ceramic paper.... which is great for pigment... but not ideal for dye permanence.

Epson Claria and Canon ChromaLife 100 inks have decent permance on OEM papers; probably better than older ink on swellable paper.

I have scoured the internet... but the only papers I have found that are swellable media are Ilford Classic gloss and Classic Pearl and HP Premium Plus photo paper.

The other two I am aware of, are the HP Premium and Fujifilm Premium Plus.

FaciaBrut Contributing Member • Posts: 555
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

Midnighter wrote:

I have scoured the internet... but the only papers I have found that are swellable media are Ilford Classic gloss and Classic Pearl and HP Premium Plus photo paper.

Does anyone know of others?

If you're using an HP printer which specifies swellable type paper, you've already found the best. I use both papers in my HP B8750 with incredible results. I don't think I'll be around long enough to tell you whether longevity exceeds 30 or 100 years.
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Chas

OP Midnighter Senior Member • Posts: 1,727
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

For what its worth I found one more, not a paper but a canvas.

Manufacturer: Canson

Artist Canvas Proffesional Gloss 390 (comes on rolls only)

Note: While this particular canvas has a swellable coating, the matte canvases in the same range do not (they are more suited to pigment)

Peter McNeill Senior Member • Posts: 1,554
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

Be aware that due to the manufacture process of HP ink and Premium Plus paper (apparenty Prem Plus paper was especially formulated for HP ink or so HP claims), Canon and Epson dye inks have a tendancy to pool on the surface. YMMV so it may or may not work out well. How ever, as pointed out previously, Canon Chromalife 100 is good for a long time... Prelim tests show 10yrs with no frame, 30 or more framed under glass, and 100 yrs in archival albums.
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Growing old is not an option.... acting young is.

Robertdavid Junior Member • Posts: 41
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

I use both the Fujifilm Premium Plus (extra glossy) and Ilford Gallerie Classic Gloss on my 1410 (1400) that runs a locally made (NZ) CIS system. Both papers / ink perform very well although I will make the following observations:

1. The Ilford Gallerie (swellable) paper was NOT suitable for use on the OEM (Claria) ink set as even the lightest touch on the (fully dry) surface would mar / smear the image, as well as having almost zero tolerance to moisture. The CIS inks on the other hand have proven to be perfectly stable although also being dye based.

2, The Fujifilm paper performed equally well on both OEM and CIS ink sets. The instruction sheet does not specifically state that this is swellable paper although is does suggest a reasonably long drying period and that not all inkjet types are suitable for use on this paper. Perhaps they are hinting that pigment inks may not be a good choice.

Dominic.Chan Veteran Member • Posts: 6,168
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

Robertdavid wrote:

2, The Fujifilm paper performed equally well on both OEM and CIS ink sets. The instruction sheet does not specifically state that this is swellable paper although is does suggest a reasonably long drying period and that not all inkjet types are suitable for use on this paper. Perhaps they are hinting that pigment inks may not be a good choice.

The information on the packaging gave no information regarding compatibility with pigment ink. I found out the hard way that it's not.

FaciaBrut Contributing Member • Posts: 555
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

so what brand and model printer are we talking about anyway?
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Chas

xilvar Senior Member • Posts: 1,403
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

If you happen to be desperate the fuji paper can be printed by the pro level epson printers using 2.5s extra time per head pass.

I have a pack simply because a local 'fox camera' (owned by ritz) was going out of business and I think I bought the 100 sht pack for $1.50?

Another odd problem it has is that if it is fairly humid the paper starts to curl up along the long axis making it rather difficult to print upon.

xilvar

Dominic.Chan wrote:

Robertdavid wrote:

2, The Fujifilm paper performed equally well on both OEM and CIS ink sets. The instruction sheet does not specifically state that this is swellable paper although is does suggest a reasonably long drying period and that not all inkjet types are suitable for use on this paper. Perhaps they are hinting that pigment inks may not be a good choice.

The information on the packaging gave no information regarding compatibility with pigment ink. I found out the hard way that it's not.

OP Midnighter Senior Member • Posts: 1,727
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

Well, for anyone who uses a CISS the brand of printer is irrelevant, so it’s just a generic question about the papers specifically suited to dye printing. The CISS dye ink I use has a UV stabilizer in it (or claims too anyway) but that does not get away from the reality that the quality of paper is most important for dye print longevity for prints that are not going to be handled... whereas it’s the quality of ink that is most important for pigment. I may buy/build/borrow an ozone generator to artificially age the prints to test the papers.

Dominic.Chan Veteran Member • Posts: 6,168
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

Midnighter wrote:

The CISS dye ink I use has a UV stabilizer in it (or claims too anyway) but that does not get away from the reality that the quality of paper is most important for dye print longevity for prints that are not going to be handled... whereas it’s the quality of ink that is most important for pigment.

While paper indeed plays an important role, ink is just as important, or even more important. For example, Wilhelm's testing showed the following print permanance data:
HP ink + HP Premium Plus - 73 years
Jessops ink + HP Premium Plus - 4.5 years
Jessops ink + Jessops paper - 0.9 years

Zone8 Forum Pro • Posts: 17,276
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

Dominic.Chan wrote:

HP ink + HP Premium Plus - 73 years
Jessops ink + HP Premium Plus - 4.5 years
Jessops ink + Jessops paper - 0.9 years

I would truly question that last claim of a short life Dominic (AND I question many posted "results of tests" from Wilhelm - a number of which they had to withdraw through being invalid from time to time).

My family has a framed print of one of the granddaughters when she was around 18 months old. She is now nearly 12.

The print was made with PrintRite ink in an Epson 1200 on Jessops Satin A3 photo paper. The edges are masked, which enable checking for fading, etc.

Despite being on display for some 10+ years now, and not always in ideal lighting = too bright, but that's families for you - there is absolutely no sign of any fading. Another framed print on display on my preferred Canson Watercolour Paper, also with PrintRite inks (they for the 1200 and 1160 Epsons had to be withdrawn from the market due Epson's heavy handed threats of law suits - I am sure you will remember the fears that Epson could get all compatibles off the market - fortunately, the Far East, whose companies also make Epson cartridges and inks (people seem to forget that) soon overcame the problem and compatible cartridges - many - are better than OEM ones - and the chips are certainly more advanced as they self-reset for CIS and refillable compatibles and units.

My experience with Jessops (well, at least their Satin Photo Paper) has been nothing but favourable, so where that test result came from poses a mystery compared to real world useage. I know Jessops has changed their Satin paper (slightly lighter weight) but I intend bring a couple of packs of A3 back from my next UK visit, as colleagues have used the new product and they are pleased with the results. I have found using acid-free watercolour paper is perhaps the best practice overall, for sellable work as nothing in the paper can affect the inks.

It is also worth mentioning that the very nature of swellable surfaces also exposes prints to the ingress of unwanted airbourne contaminants, which may be one reason for their general withdrawal.

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Zone8

The photograph isolates and perpetuates a moment of time: an important and revealing moment, or an unimportant and meaningless one, depending upon the photographer's understanding of his subject and mastery of his process. -Edward Weston
http://www.photosnowdonia.co.uk/ZPS

OP Midnighter Senior Member • Posts: 1,727
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

Zone8 wrote:

It is also worth mentioning that the very nature of swellable surfaces also exposes prints to the ingress of unwanted airbourne contaminants, which may be one reason for their general withdrawal.

Umm no...... its the exact opposite. It’s a porous paper that’s open to airborne contaminants and a swellable paper that has a coating which forms a barrier.

http://h20423.www2.hp.com/program/paper/sg/en/paper_lightfastness.asp

http://global.epson.com/technology/print_permanence_inkspapers.htm

The reason they were withdrawn from the market is that the image is damaged by water and took too long to dry coming out of the printer, so images could not be printed quickly because the printer rollers would damage the image (and themselves be contaminated by ink) if it was still too wet. Also prints could not be handled as much as pigment prints.... especialy glossy surface swellables. So, even though dye image quality is better it became the 'poor brother' technology to pigment just as sweallble papers did to porous.... its just a harder paper to work with, when I use swellable paper I always print uni-directional and upscale the printing resolution of the image to maximum specifically to slow its printing.

Zone8 Forum Pro • Posts: 17,276
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

Midnighter wrote:

Umm no...... its the exact opposite. It’s a porous paper that’s open to airborne contaminants and a swellable paper that has a coating which forms a barrier.

I know that was the official explanation but in practice, especially in humid conditions, that surface was definitely inclined to allow access of airbourne contaminants. However, the other aspects you mentioned made it an unlikely contender to win accolades.

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Zone8

The photograph isolates and perpetuates a moment of time: an important and revealing moment, or an unimportant and meaningless one, depending upon the photographer's understanding of his subject and mastery of his process. -Edward Weston
http://www.photosnowdonia.co.uk/ZPS

Mark McCormick Senior Member • Posts: 1,527
Re: Swellable papers for dye ink?

Zone8 wrote:

Midnighter wrote:

Umm no...... its the exact opposite. It’s a porous paper that’s open to airborne contaminants and a swellable paper that has a coating which forms a barrier.

I know that was the official explanation but in practice, especially in humid conditions, that surface was definitely inclined to allow access of airbourne contaminants. However, the other aspects you mentioned made it an unlikely contender to win accolades.

The most well known example of a "swellable" polymer is the traditional photographic print. Photographic gelatin is the binder. When immersed in water, the gelatin changes from a hard dry polymer to a rubbery gel state, allowing the processing chemistry to diffuse rapidly into the gelatin and reach the image forming chemistry. A lesser known fact is that it doesn't take full water immersion to reach the gel state (technically known as the glass transition temperature of the polymer). At normal room temperature the photographic gelatin becomes a rubbery gel at about 75%RH. This RH level occurs routinely in various parts of the world. When you see photos stuck to glass, or the "silver mirroring tarnish" on old photos these effects were caused by high humidity events enabling the gelatin layer to reach its glass transition point. Inkjet swellables are often comprised of an even more solubilized from of gelatin so that they will get rubbery or sticky at even lower humidity levels. I've seen some inkjet prints that allowed further lateral dye diffusion of the image (the image grows blurrier over time) in humidity levels as low as 60% RH. That's what has made the swellable inkjet papers very problematic for many consumers. That said, when kept in moderate humidity, the swellable polymer does indeed encapsulate the dyes and make them much more light fade resistant and ozone fade resistant.

Swellable polymers are thus a two-edged sword, and it's easy to understand why pigment/microporous is winning in the print longevity battle in the prosumer/pro market, although I wouldn't count dye-based microporous out of the game. In fact the new inkjet photofinishing equipment now being installed at superstores like Costco and Walmart in the U.S. is a dye-based/microporous inkjet system. No bronzing or differential gloss issues, great color, the look and feel of tradional RC photos, but more prone to light fade and ozone fade than most pigmented inkjet prints.

cheers,

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