Monolithic Color: Gold! - oddity

Started Dec 20, 2009 | Discussions
Ed at Ridersite Forum Pro • Posts: 20,078
Monolithic Color: Gold! - oddity

I was surprised to see so many 1/2-star votes for my entry, but looking through the final rankings, I see that almost every shot seems to have an inordinate number of 1/2-star votes.

1st - 4
2nd - 3
3rd - 6
4th - 8
5th - 5
6th - 7
7th - 7
7th - 5
9th - 3
10th - 7

What's going on????
--
AEH
http://aehass.zenfolio.com/
Question: What do you do all week?
Answer: Mon to Fri. Nothing, Sat & Sun I rest!

 Ed at Ridersite's gear list:Ed at Ridersite's gear list
Sony RX100 II Sony SLT-A68 Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM Sony 70-400mm F4-5.6 G SSM II
Jan2009 Regular Member • Posts: 461
Re: Monolithic Color: Gold! - oddity

Ed , Did you see the Jazz result? I did a quick study.. oh man... its spoils the fun of this Challenge. Ofcourse "Manuallitark.." will deny any knowledge of this.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=189102&View=Results&Rows=4/

Bradstaylor , your entry was my #2 to win in rivers, gave it 4.5 start and the other photo was 4 stars, just because I sensed it was of the same member. Sorry about that 0.5 stars, we really can't avoid other members fun :(.

Maybe we should try to complain more to dpreview about this unfairness.

br,
Norberto

 Jan2009's gear list:Jan2009's gear list
Canon PowerShot D10 Canon EOS 40D Canon EOS 7D Canon EF 50mm F1.8 II Canon EF-S 10-22mm F3.5-4.5 USM +2 more
OP Ed at Ridersite Forum Pro • Posts: 20,078
Re: Monolithic Color: Gold! - oddity

I see what you mean. That's about as blatant as one could imagine. What's most amazing is that even with her cadre of voters, she still couldn't pull off 1st place

Jan2009 wrote:

Ed , Did you see the Jazz result? I did a quick study.. oh man... its spoils the fun of this Challenge. Ofcourse "Manuallitark.." will deny any knowledge of this.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=189102&View=Results&Rows=4/

-- hide signature --

AEH
http://aehass.zenfolio.com/
Question: What do you do all week?
Answer: Mon to Fri. Nothing, Sat & Sun I rest!

 Ed at Ridersite's gear list:Ed at Ridersite's gear list
Sony RX100 II Sony SLT-A68 Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM Sony 70-400mm F4-5.6 G SSM II
Manuaalitarkennus Regular Member • Posts: 160
Re: Monolithic Color: Gold! - oddity

Jan2009 wrote:

Maybe we should try to complain more to dpreview about this unfairness.

I'll be the first to complain. Do you really think this is fun for me? I'm only hoping I wouldn't have to leave this page, this could be fun and educative and many times has been, but if the votes aren't honest, there's no point... now I'm a scapegoat here, and almost ready to leave dpreview.

I can see my votes aren't average. In fact, I was the one to point it out ( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1005&message=33615518 ) - would I have done that if I did it myself?

DarylK
DarylK Senior Member • Posts: 2,198
Re: Monolithic Color: Gold! - oddity

Jan2009,

All the 0.5 votes are certainly a problem (I seem to have received my share in the Monolithic Color: Gold challenge as well). However, with all due respect, I don't know what complaining to dpreview will accomplish. They have no control over how people vote. If I ever have the misfortune of running into a situation like this, I'll create a new alias and not tell anybody (family/friends) to try to reestablish an unbiased scoring.

Manuaalitarkennus,
Hang in there and try to keep it fun and fair - and keep shooting and entering!

Daryl

Manuaalitarkennus wrote:

Jan2009 wrote:

Maybe we should try to complain more to dpreview about this unfairness.

I'll be the first to complain. Do you really think this is fun for me? I'm only hoping I wouldn't have to leave this page, this could be fun and educative and many times has been, but if the votes aren't honest, there's no point... now I'm a scapegoat here, and almost ready to leave dpreview.

I can see my votes aren't average. In fact, I was the one to point it out ( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1005&message=33615518 ) - would I have done that if I did it myself?

-- hide signature --

DarylK

 DarylK's gear list:DarylK's gear list
Pentax K-3 Pentax K-1 Pentax smc DA 15mm F4 ED AL Limited Pentax smc DA 10-17mm F3.5-4.5 ED (IF) Fisheye Pentax smc DA 12-24mm F4.0 ED AL (IF) +12 more
Manuaalitarkennus Regular Member • Posts: 160
Re: Monolithic Color: Gold! - oddity

DarylK wrote:

If I ever have the misfortune of running into a situation like this, I'll create a new alias and not tell anybody (family/friends) to try to reestablish an unbiased scoring.

Manuaalitarkennus,
Hang in there and try to keep it fun and fair - and keep shooting and entering!

Daryl

Thank you Daryl, it's nice to know there's still someone who trusts me.

If there really is someone trying to help me with fishy voting, I don't think a new alias would help - my friends and family have already seen a lot of my photos and I believe they'd even recognize my style quite easily when they haven't. My web pages aren't the "best of -collection" type but there's a series of changing "exhibitions" of my newest photos, so it wouldn't be easy to avoid entering photos I've already published there. I can't even remember all of the photos I've published. (I've never told anyone my alias, the few people who know it found it out themselves.)

I still have a hard time believing anyone (my friends or family) would do anything like this to me. I really hope someone would come up with some other explanation. But most of all, I hope to get honest opinions and votes on my photos, believe it or not. I'm far too serious with photography to cheat in any way - and surely not serious enough with these challenges.

I'll always keep shooting, and for now I'll also keep entering and hope these issues could soon be forgotten.

Jan2009 Regular Member • Posts: 461
Re: Monolithic Color: Gold! - oddity

Manualfocus (thanks to my Finnish connection ;),

Please do not get me wrong, I too am learning here in Dpreview challenges. If you notice, I have directed the attention to your voters/fans/followers. I hope you also agree that the recent jazz photo is not at par with the top 10 result. My only concern in the future is having your entries not taken seriously because of the unfair votes.

For the record, I have high respect for Finnish people at work, as I agree with their honestly and straight answer, so I am not picking a fight especially on Christmas day.

DarylK complaining to dpreview can hopefully trigger their investigation on who are THESE voters that votes down on the entries particularly in the recent Jazz contest. If you observed, there are at least 5 times of 0.5 votes on all the top 10 and only Manualitarkennus had a single 0.5 vote, not to mention the high votes on 5*. But objectively speaking the photo in my opinion is not that good, No offense Manualitarkennus.

Have a wonderful Christmas to all of you.

br,
Norberto

 Jan2009's gear list:Jan2009's gear list
Canon PowerShot D10 Canon EOS 40D Canon EOS 7D Canon EF 50mm F1.8 II Canon EF-S 10-22mm F3.5-4.5 USM +2 more
Manuaalitarkennus Regular Member • Posts: 160
Not about gold anymore but about jazz.

Norberto,

thank you, I feel much better after reading this.

About the jazz photo - I've always liked it a lot, and I'd like to explain why... I'm a big fan of RTF, and Stanley Clarke is a legend for sure. The twist of his wrist is quite famous, and I find it much more essential and even more characteristic than his face - it's what makes the aggressive bass sound I (and many others) love. So I decided to crop out everything non-essential and trust those giant hands would tell the story. For me, they do, and many musicians and music fans have praised the photo.

I didn't expect it to do this good here, but that's not because I wouldn't find the photo good enough, but because this is not a musician / music lover site. I didn't know if this story would be interesting for an average photographer - and I'm not sure if I still do. Technically speaking, there's nothing wrong, is there? It's a sharp photo (only a hint of hand movement showing), colors and exposure are fine, composition and cropping are effective. Lightning and background are nothing special, I know, but the story I intended to tell is told effectively, IMO. I took it for a music magazine, so, even the story was very interesting for my client.

I still find it a good photo, and it's a shame I didn't really find out how do other photographers find it (at least it seems I didn't). If I really do have "followers", it's surely a great compliment, but I'd like to them vote honestly, also other photos.

Yes, my alias means Manual Focus, maybe I should have translated it myself. It's been the name of my web pages for years.

Have a wonderful Christmas, Norberto, and all the others.

Suvi

Kivi Junior Member • Posts: 42
About fair play...

I want to comment this discussion as a family member of Manuaalitarkennus because I feel that these comments are really unfair to her. I feel bad also because I talked her to start participating when I saw a challenge to which she had some excellent images (IMO). I am the only other member in our family registered in Dpreview, but of course I cannot know about her friends, so I can only tell my viewpoint.

Unfortunately I have no explanation to the, obviously strange, voting results in the Jazz challenge. First I thought that her image just "missed the radar" of some people who want to pull the potential winners down - to me it seems that such people exist, as the Gold! challenge showed - but since she is the only one having very few 0.5 votes in the Jazz challenge, I know that it is not a valid argument. However, I would never call anyone to her friend if he/she votes to pull others down to "help" her image up . It would be the most wicked thing one can do in a challenge, as we can see from this discussion. She is now blamed for these oddities, and believe me, the last thing she wants here is to win by cheating. I know her well enough to be sure that she has not organized voters to support her or to pull others down. If someone has, he/she should have the guts to stand up and take the blame (and stop it). I sincerely hope that Dpreview would investigate the oddities in the challenges and block voters who systematically pull specific persons up or large numbers of images in a challenge down.

Manuaalitarkennus and I have discussed about participating in the challenges quite a lot, and this is not serious for either of us; it is just interesting to see how different images get votes. We both feel that participation should be just fun. We agree with Norberto that biased voting spoils the fun of the challenges, and being accused for cheating even more so.

PS. I did not vote in the Jazz or Gold! challenges (actually not in any challenge in a couple of weeks), and I have never voted the images of Manuaalitarkennus using any other criteria than I use for all images in the challenges in which I vote.

Manuaalitarkennus Regular Member • Posts: 160
Re: About fair play...

Thanks, Daddy.

I know one friend of mine has been visiting dpreview, and also voting in some challenges, but he's a honest and upright man too. I've never linked dp to my web pages or anywhere, so it's highly unlikely my other friends have ever visited. Why would I tell them? They can tell their opinions about my photos straight to me, without any voting systems.

sherwoodpete
sherwoodpete Veteran Member • Posts: 7,767
Re: About fair play...

Manuaalitarkennus wrote:

Thanks, Daddy.

I know one friend of mine has been visiting dpreview, and also voting in some challenges, but he's a honest and upright man too. I've never linked dp to my web pages or anywhere, so it's highly unlikely my other friends have ever visited. Why would I tell them? They can tell their opinions about my photos straight to me, without any voting systems.

I'm neutral on this matter.

However, if your username here is also used elsewhere on the internet, out of curiosity someone might have put the username into google and found dpreview that way. Just a possibility.

Regards,
Peter

Manuaalitarkennus Regular Member • Posts: 160
Re: About fair play...

sherwoodpete wrote:

However, if your username here is also used elsewhere on the internet, out of curiosity someone might have put the username into google and found dpreview that way. Just a possibility.

Yes, that's possible. Still, I find it quite unlikely my friends would do that. Or maybe they could google me, but if they find me here, would they not say a thing and start voting that way? Sounds more like a stalker...

Anyway, I'd love the entries to be anonymous until the end of the voting phase. I mean all the way, right from the moment they are submitted, and also not visible on the profile page.

Suvi

OP Ed at Ridersite Forum Pro • Posts: 20,078
Sorry Suvi ...

Sorry I've caused you so much grief. Your father's trust is good enough for me (I've got three daughters). And, my reading of your photos is that you have a lot of talent. Your dad isn't bad with a camera either - must run in the family.

I liked the shot you submitted to "J..." Like Jazzy. I wasn't as crazy about the one in Monolithic Color: Gold, but the one your dad submitted was tied for 1st in my votes.

I hope you continue with the challenges and maybe the spoilers will just go away.
--
AEH
http://aehass.zenfolio.com/
Question: What do you do all week?
Answer: Mon to Fri. Nothing, Sat & Sun I rest!

 Ed at Ridersite's gear list:Ed at Ridersite's gear list
Sony RX100 II Sony SLT-A68 Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM Sony 70-400mm F4-5.6 G SSM II
Manuaalitarkennus Regular Member • Posts: 160
Re: Sorry Suvi ...

Thank you for your nice words, Ed.

To be honest - I'm not crazy about the Gold either. I like my Black and I wish I could some day reproduce my White (it needs to be a little sharper and the composition could be better too - I still like the surreal feeling), but Gold... oh well, I had fun making it, painting the elephant and so on, and I'll have more fun trying to make other miniature things look big.

It was my grandfather, so the father of Kivi who started this, decades ago. He was also a talent, and I've many times thought we should scan some of his photos so they would be saved for my children. Kivi has three daughters, too, but I'm the only one this much into photography.

I like the challenges and I've learned a lot here, so I'll surely go on with them.

Suvi

Jan2009 Regular Member • Posts: 461
Filed the complain, let us see if Challenge admin can respond

Hi Summer (Suvi), Ed and Kivi,

I have filed the request for investigation if there really are any of Suvi's stalkers I just dont know how far dpreview will give attention to it but its a start. I don't think that will be such a difficult algorithm, since the website can record the logs of users vote.

Challenge hosts is there a way for you to know who voted on 0.5 stars on top 10 entries of jazz challenge?

Anyway let us just hope for this challenges to continue in a fun and friendly way.

Thanks,
Norberto

 Jan2009's gear list:Jan2009's gear list
Canon PowerShot D10 Canon EOS 40D Canon EOS 7D Canon EF 50mm F1.8 II Canon EF-S 10-22mm F3.5-4.5 USM +2 more
Manuaalitarkennus Regular Member • Posts: 160
Re: Filed the complain, let us see if Challenge admin can respond

Jan2009 wrote:

Hi Summer (Suvi)

You really seem to have a Finnish connection!

Thanks, Norberto. I hope this situation will calm down now, one way or another.

Suvi

Kivi Junior Member • Posts: 42
Re: Sorry Suvi ...

Ed: Suvi already told in her reply most of the things I would have told, but I want to say my thanks too; both for your trust in my words and also acknowledging my photos

One reason I have not linked my web site to Dpreview and use another name here is that I have a large photo blog (or diary) with quite a lot of visitors and hundreds of friends all around the world. They all are reasonable people, but still I want to avoid a situation where they would vote me on this site because they happen to know me. As discussed in an earlier thread, I strongly support full anonymity until the voting ends. Then we would get votes based on the images, not on some external issue such as the camera or personality of the photographer.

Although it is of course nice to get a good result in the voting winning is not the main thing here for me. Every now and then I try to see people's reactions to somewhat different interpretation of the theme knowing that I cannot win, and often I surprise of the results - sometimes positively, sometimes negatively, but it is a learning process anyway...

Jan2009 Regular Member • Posts: 461
Re: Filed the complain, let us see if Challenge admin can respond

Suvi,

Well to be honest I googled your name coz I wanted to know how to refer you (either male or female and I found out Suvi is female name in Finnish that means summer Nice name..

Ok thanks and have a great week! Yes I do have many Finnish friends coz I work for the Finnish phone Nokia, now Nokia Siemens Network.

Kittos,
Norberto

 Jan2009's gear list:Jan2009's gear list
Canon PowerShot D10 Canon EOS 40D Canon EOS 7D Canon EF 50mm F1.8 II Canon EF-S 10-22mm F3.5-4.5 USM +2 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads