Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

Started Nov 11, 2009 | Discussions
elfroggio
elfroggio MOD Senior Member • Posts: 2,710
Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

Wiggett compares the 7d to Nikon d300s and the 1sdMk3.

http://darwinwiggett.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-canon-7d/

Does anybody cares to comment?

My view it's the raw converter. Canon really screwed up when they didn't arrange it Adobe. Nikon did get it though in the LR2.5 and ACR5.5 why not Canon?

Thanks

PC Wheeler
PC Wheeler Forum Pro • Posts: 17,019
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

They change the RAW with each new model. ACR 5.5 has not yet caught up with the 7D. ACR will be 7D capable in a month or two.

DPR used a beta ACR 5.6 provided by Adobe for their review.

Anyway, I have no comment on the review in your message. His IQ results don't match those I've seen posted here nor my images. So I suspect it was something in his procedure, perhaps processing maybe not -- but who can know. I like my 7D very much and don't feel any need to figure out why his results were not as I would expect.

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alundeb Forum Member • Posts: 60
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

Did they say f16? On a crop? The airy disc is two pixels wide.

If a reviewer doesn't know that you must use 1 1/3 stop wider aperture on a 1.6 crop sensor to get the SAME DOF AND DIFFRACTION, they are far off.

They don't have a clue what they're doing.

Our only hope for a correct measurement of 7D resolution is photozone, they use apertue f/4.

-- hide signature --

It depends on the eye

arindamdas Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

alundeb wrote:

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

Did they say f16? On a crop? The airy disc is two pixels wide.

If a reviewer doesn't know that you must use 1 1/3 stop wider aperture on a 1.6 crop sensor to get the SAME DOF AND DIFFRACTION, they are far off.

They don't have a clue what they're doing.

Our only hope for a correct measurement of 7D resolution is photozone, they use apertue f/4.

-- hide signature --

It depends on the eye

alundeb Forum Member • Posts: 60
Reference: imaging-resource

Forgot to mention, there is a review out that doesn't screw it up that badly.

Go to imaging-resource.com and download RAW files from the still life scene.

Process the files in a RAW converter that doesn't mess up with the new green channels layout (CaptureOne 5 or Raw Therapee).

Then you will see a sensible relationship between camera resoltuions.

Still, the 7D (and to some degree the 50D and 500D) suffer a bit from diffraction at F8.

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It depends on the eye

arindamdas Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

by your logic, one should forget using small apertures on a crop sensor camera. in the field, if all one has is one camera, he/she would like to be able to take different types (portraits, landscapes, etc) of pictures reasonably well and not worry about 'this camera does this and that camera does that'. by that token, the review is an eye-opener. if all you want to do is take good pictures, the rebel xsi does indeed hold its own.

while f/4 may be good for test purposes, try asking a landscape photographer to use f/4 in field. realize that tests are just that, field conditions may vary considerably.

so for me, it does not matter one bit that the reviewer did not use an f/4 aperture since I wouldn't be using f/4 either while photographing landscapes.

arindamdas wrote:

alundeb wrote:

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

Did they say f16? On a crop? The airy disc is two pixels wide.

If a reviewer doesn't know that you must use 1 1/3 stop wider aperture on a 1.6 crop sensor to get the SAME DOF AND DIFFRACTION, they are far off.

They don't have a clue what they're doing.

Our only hope for a correct measurement of 7D resolution is photozone, they use apertue f/4.

-- hide signature --

It depends on the eye

alundeb Forum Member • Posts: 60
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

I forgot why I don't post here anymore.

Why do we need to teach basics each time for each and every issue?

Did you not read what I said? Whit a smaller sensor, you must use a wider aperture to GET THE SAME DOF.

This is not my theory. When you use different sensor sizes, you MUST use different settings to get the same results.

I am not going to keep on explaining this, because everbody who seeks true knowledge, will find this out.

arindamdas wrote:

by your logic, one should forget using small apertures on a crop sensor camera. in the field, if all one has is one camera, he/she would like to be able to take different types (portraits, landscapes, etc) of pictures reasonably well and not worry about 'this camera does this and that camera does that'. by that token, the review is an eye-opener. if all you want to do is take good pictures, the rebel xsi does indeed hold its own.

while f/4 may be good for test purposes, try asking a landscape photographer to use f/4 in field. realize that tests are just that, field conditions may vary considerably.

so for me, it does not matter one bit that the reviewer did not use an f/4 aperture since I wouldn't be using f/4 either while photographing landscapes.

arindamdas wrote:

alundeb wrote:

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

Did they say f16? On a crop? The airy disc is two pixels wide.

If a reviewer doesn't know that you must use 1 1/3 stop wider aperture on a 1.6 crop sensor to get the SAME DOF AND DIFFRACTION, they are far off.

They don't have a clue what they're doing.

Our only hope for a correct measurement of 7D resolution is photozone, they use apertue f/4.

-- hide signature --

It depends on the eye

-- hide signature --

It depends on the eye

Greg Pavlov Senior Member • Posts: 1,888
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

alundeb wrote:

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

The 7D is not the only high-density sensor camera with photos in this review. And if the 7D is truly diffraction-limited by f8, that is a problem (I suspect, tho, that diffraction is not the issue here).

arindamdas Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

let me give you an analogy. this should clear up your thinking, I hope ...

you have two cars, car A and car B. the manufacturer of car A says it gets 30 mpg in standard test conditions and the manufacturer of car B says it gets 25 mpg.

however, in normal city driving conditions, drivers say car A gets 20 mpg and car B gets 22 mpg.

by your reasoning, you will probably go for car A since it has higher mpg in standard test conditions. fine, that's your logic and I dont have any complaints with that.

I, for one, wouldn't want to change the city streets first to get them to match the standard test conditions and then start driving on them. I would get car B instead since that would suit my purpose.

hey, to each his own!

alundeb wrote:
I forgot why I don't post here anymore.

Why do we need to teach basics each time for each and every issue?

Did you not read what I said? Whit a smaller sensor, you must use a wider aperture to GET THE SAME DOF.

This is not my theory. When you use different sensor sizes, you MUST use different settings to get the same results.

I am not going to keep on explaining this, because everbody who seeks true knowledge, will find this out.

arindamdas wrote:

by your logic, one should forget using small apertures on a crop sensor camera. in the field, if all one has is one camera, he/she would like to be able to take different types (portraits, landscapes, etc) of pictures reasonably well and not worry about 'this camera does this and that camera does that'. by that token, the review is an eye-opener. if all you want to do is take good pictures, the rebel xsi does indeed hold its own.

while f/4 may be good for test purposes, try asking a landscape photographer to use f/4 in field. realize that tests are just that, field conditions may vary considerably.

so for me, it does not matter one bit that the reviewer did not use an f/4 aperture since I wouldn't be using f/4 either while photographing landscapes.

arindamdas wrote:

alundeb wrote:

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

Did they say f16? On a crop? The airy disc is two pixels wide.

If a reviewer doesn't know that you must use 1 1/3 stop wider aperture on a 1.6 crop sensor to get the SAME DOF AND DIFFRACTION, they are far off.

They don't have a clue what they're doing.

Our only hope for a correct measurement of 7D resolution is photozone, they use apertue f/4.

-- hide signature --

It depends on the eye

-- hide signature --

It depends on the eye

alundeb Forum Member • Posts: 60
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

What?

What other camera is there with that pixel density? The 7D has 50% more pixels per area than the Xsi and D300, and more than double the pixel density of the 1ds3.

Using f/8 with 1.6 crop isn't a senosr specific problem.

Trading DOF against diffraction is a fundamental property of photography. There is no format that can provide less diffraction at a give DOF than another.

Greg Pavlov wrote:

alundeb wrote:

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

The 7D is not the only high-density sensor camera with photos in this review. And if the 7D is truly diffraction-limited by f8, that is a problem (I suspect, tho, that diffraction is not the issue here).

-- hide signature --

It depends on the eye

arindamdas Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

Greg,

You better hope that you don't encounter landscapes while you were with a 7D. If you do, oh oh, big problem. You have 18 Mp to boast about, but heck, a landscape? Didn't you know you can only go up to f/6 or f/7.1 with your camera?

All in jest ...

Greg Pavlov wrote:

alundeb wrote:

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

The 7D is not the only high-density sensor camera with photos in this review. And if the 7D is truly diffraction-limited by f8, that is a problem (I suspect, tho, that diffraction is not the issue here).

alundeb Forum Member • Posts: 60
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

I will try to help you out one last time.

With a 1.6 crop camera, you must use a lens with 1/1.6 the Focal Length (FL) to get the same Field of view.

The physical aperture (entrance pupil) is FL/f-stop. So, when moving from say 80 mm and f/8 on FF to 50 mm and f/5.0 1.6 crop, the entrance pupil has the same diameter.

Now, you get the same FOV and same amount of light, and same DOF, and same diffraction.

Try to think and find something good to read:

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/

You do understand it is a bit bothersome to rewrite all this in every discussion, right?

arindamdas wrote:
Greg,

You better hope that you don't encounter landscapes while you were with a 7D. If you do, oh oh, big problem. You have 18 Mp to boast about, but heck, a landscape? Didn't you know you can only go up to f/6 or f/7.1 with your camera?

All in jest ...

Greg Pavlov wrote:

alundeb wrote:

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

The 7D is not the only high-density sensor camera with photos in this review. And if the 7D is truly diffraction-limited by f8, that is a problem (I suspect, tho, that diffraction is not the issue here).

-- hide signature --

It depends on the eye

arindamdas Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

hey, I said it before, and I will say it again.

with one camera in hand, I want to be able to take decent pictures. and yes, sometimes, I might want to use f/8 for enough dof. if an xsi does a better job at it than a 7d, the xsi is better.

peace be with you and your theory. theory is good, but if in practice, the xsi seems better or at least equal to a much expensive body under varied conditions, that is good enough for me.

btw, you can stop your condescending attitude. I hate to bring this up, but I think with a ph.d, I am fairly aware of your basics without you having to teach them.

alundeb wrote:
I will try to help you out one last time.

With a 1.6 crop camera, you must use a lens with 1/1.6 the Focal Length (FL) to get the same Field of view.

The physical aperture (entrance pupil) is FL/f-stop. So, when moving from say 80 mm and f/8 on FF to 50 mm and f/5.0 1.6 crop, the entrance pupil has the same diameter.

Now, you get the same FOV and same amount of light, and same DOF, and same diffraction.

Try to think and find something good to read:

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/

You do understand it is a bit bothersome to rewrite all this in every discussion, right?

arindamdas wrote:
Greg,

You better hope that you don't encounter landscapes while you were with a 7D. If you do, oh oh, big problem. You have 18 Mp to boast about, but heck, a landscape? Didn't you know you can only go up to f/6 or f/7.1 with your camera?

All in jest ...

Greg Pavlov wrote:

alundeb wrote:

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

The 7D is not the only high-density sensor camera with photos in this review. And if the 7D is truly diffraction-limited by f8, that is a problem (I suspect, tho, that diffraction is not the issue here).

-- hide signature --

It depends on the eye

jameslj Regular Member • Posts: 125
Shoot landscapes at f/7.1

You can shoot landscapes at f/7.1. It's easy with a wide angle lens.

With a 17mm lens at f/7.1, hyperfocal distance is about 9 feet.
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

I even shot this one at 25mm and f/4.5:

But, if a shot needed f/16, I would use f/16. It's all about tradeoffs. I don't think diffraction is that noticeable on the 7D at f/13 and below when sharpening a bit and viewing at normal sizes.

martin brech Regular Member • Posts: 255
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

alundeb wrote:

Raw converter (green channel differences not correctly handled), and aperture, sadly as usual with all reviews of 7D sharpness.

Come on, f8 to f16 on a 18 MP crop.

Did they say f16? On a crop? The airy disc is two pixels wide.

If a reviewer doesn't know that you must use 1 1/3 stop wider aperture on a 1.6 crop sensor to get the SAME DOF AND DIFFRACTION, they are far off.

They don't have a clue what they're doing.

I agree.

But still, at f11, it should not be bad cuz it's a usefull aperture in landscape photography.

Even though,in the end, who uses shots in raw with no post-processing? nobody! so even if 7d might be less sharp with 0 sharpening, it can perfectly give wonderful details with a bit of PP.
They should have compare jpeg files if they don't make any PP.

but I still appreciate the fact that they dare giving their opinion in what seem a well done test, trying different bodies and so on, even if their opinion is at the opposite of other reviews.

arindamdas Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: Shoot landscapes at f/7.1

sure, why not? I frequently use f/8 and above with my crop sensor cameras and I am happy with the results.

my main gripe is about posters who, having bought their 7D, seem to take offense at even the slightest inkling in any review that a lesser priced camera can match their 7D's IQ.

jameslj wrote:

You can shoot landscapes at f/7.1. It's easy with a wide angle lens.

With a 17mm lens at f/7.1, hyperfocal distance is about 9 feet.
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

I even shot this one at 25mm and f/4.5:

But, if a shot needed f/16, I would use f/16. It's all about tradeoffs. I don't think diffraction is that noticeable on the 7D at f/13 and below when sharpening a bit and viewing at normal sizes.

SpartanWarrior
SpartanWarrior Senior Member • Posts: 2,906
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

Lol so what he is actually saying is that the Canon G11 is much better,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
what a bunch of CROCK.
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dmanthree Veteran Member • Posts: 6,231
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

He used a beta version of ACR instead of the production oversion of DPP? Why? Totally invalidates the results.
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chisquared Senior Member • Posts: 1,303
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

elfroggio wrote:

Wiggett compares the 7d to Nikon d300s and the 1sdMk3.

http://darwinwiggett.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-canon-7d/

Does anybody cares to comment?

Not a great review, but not all that surprising. The MP race has shot itself in the foot. Again.

My view it's the raw converter. Canon really screwed up when they didn't arrange it Adobe. Nikon did get it though in the LR2.5 and ACR5.5 why not Canon?

You could be right about the RAW conversion issue, but I still think that the MP race has now become a serious detraction from other, more important, issues. Camera manufacturers like to sell and most consumers are attracted to big MPs like fish to water.

tivoboy Senior Member • Posts: 1,421
Re: Review of 7D by Darwin Wiggett

i would really like to see someone try to reproduce this. Since, this is currently what I am seeing with the camera I am sending back to AMZN. But, i'd like to replace it with a good copy, but it appears getting multiple copies like this doesn't really help.

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