Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

Started Oct 15, 2009 | Discussions
Ross
Ross Veteran Member • Posts: 4,962
If Epson is

ging to make a public announcement like this, we might see other fabricators of small screen panels start to tell us what they are doing. This would be good news, indeed.
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Bob

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Steve Balcombe Forum Pro • Posts: 12,341
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

GregGory wrote:

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

800x600 is far from the res needed to get near to an OVF, well short..

Worked well for 15" monitors,

No it didn't, it was rubbish.

Art Vandelay II Regular Member • Posts: 394
Re: If Epson is

A lot of us have been saying for years that EVIL's are the future. I wonder if Canon and Nikon will get on board or be left in the dust. Olympus & Panasonic already have them obviously. Samsung has already previewed theirs. The rumor is Fuji will be joining Micro Four Thirds next (I hope this is true). Finally, everyone knows Sony is working on a system too.

The versatility they offer is just to much for DSLR's to match. A DSLR has one basic form factor they pretty much have to stick to. An EVIL can be any shape they imagine. The EVF is the one thing the really need to sort out. I will say this though, even now EVF's offer features OVF's can't match. Want to see a a huge preview of the image after you take it? You're not going to get it looking at a 3" LCD on the back of an DSLR, but put your eye up to a nice EVF and it's almost like looking at your 20" computer monitor. DOF preview is spot on through EVF's as well. There is no guessing what your bokeh is going to look like. What you see is what you get.

I personally am going to stick with m4/3's since they are the closest thing to an open standard (I'd much rather have multiple companies share the same mount then just one), but it will be interesting to see what Canikon does. Once upon a time Pentax was as popular as Canon and Nikon and now they are less than 5% of the market, if you don't keep up you get left behind.

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Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

GregGory wrote:

Actually, most people would argue that the processed look is an advantage... WYSIWYG

Might be for newbies

On a serious note, EVF's have their own set of problems (and OVF's do as well)
Lag in low light, limited DR, power consumption etc etc

And again, whilst some might want a pre-processed look, I def do not, it kills any pre visualisation you might have!

Worked well for 15" monitors, why shouldn't work well for an EVF? We're not talking about a solution for sports journalists.

If it's no good for moving subjects, it's no good then!

Also some say the close to sensor optical designs are better, but bring many more issues, vignetting, corner issues for WA lenses..it's no free ride.

Bad Sneakers Regular Member • Posts: 459
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

Isn't it a question of control versus convenience?

A viewfinder that accurately represents what the sensor "sees", eliminates a source of noise and vibration and potentially enhance low light picture-taking is likely to be considered as a boon to those who seek to exert the most control over the picture-taking process, provided the viewfinder image is sufficiently large and clear. This is perhaps where EVFs are headed (and see Adrian Harris' post for more advantages).

On the other hand, in the digital age, while OVFs could get larger or clearer, by definition, they will never "see" what the sensor does, probably can't exist without the need for a mirror and are wholly dependent on natural light for the view.

I understand why some currently prefer an OVF, but in theory, an EVF should lead to greater control over the picture-taking moment.

sphexx Contributing Member • Posts: 709
Re: True "non processed" view - the MVF

Tom K. wrote:

I agree but you cannot buy those any more -- unless you know different? There is a demandfor them:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1013&message=33349223

the future is here – the MVF (Mechanical ViewFinder)!

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Richard

Leo "Zoom" Senior Member • Posts: 1,611
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

Just another EVF... With 800x600 resolution it is silly to claim, that it can replace OVF.

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mickey spittoon Regular Member • Posts: 393
Re: Adapt it in a pop-up design! n/t

Thats a pretty good idea. Mount it on the back of the flash unit if the EVF is thin enough.
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Ronald Schroeder Regular Member • Posts: 386
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

When it is native 1080P, I'll take notice.
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mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 51,787
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

Leo "Zoom" wrote:

Just another EVF... With 800x600 resolution it is silly to claim, that it can replace OVF.

We shall see. There's more to an EVF than resolution. AFAIK, the main uses of the VF are to frame, follow the subject, and time the shot. And low light enhancement is important now with cameras being so capable.

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mamallama

Simon Zeev
Simon Zeev Senior Member • Posts: 2,819
Re: 800x600 a revolution?

800x600 is more that enough.

On my old Canon S1 IS the EVF have a lot less resolution but is enough for framing, adjust the exposure and the white balance.
The EVF doesn't have to be better than an OVF, just have to be "good enough".
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Art Vandelay II Regular Member • Posts: 394
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

Ronald Schroeder wrote:

When it is native 1080P, I'll take notice.
--
-Ron

Why exactly would you want 1080p unless you do nothing but video? It is completely the wrong aspect ratio for either the 4/3's sensor or APS-C sensor. Besides, when it comes to EVF's 1080p is just as arbitrary a number. We're not going to be watching blue ray DVD's through them. They might as well choose the best resolution for taking photos...these are still cameras first, video cameras second after all. I personally would rather have 1600x1200...at least that is the same aspect ratio as the 4/3's sensor.

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Ross
Ross Veteran Member • Posts: 4,962
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

Art Vandelay II wrote:

Ronald Schroeder wrote:

When it is native 1080P, I'll take notice.
--
-Ron

Why exactly would you want 1080p unless you do nothing but video? It is completely the wrong aspect ratio for either the 4/3's sensor or APS-C sensor. Besides, when it comes to EVF's 1080p is just as arbitrary a number. We're not going to be watching blue ray DVD's through them. They might as well choose the best resolution for taking photos...these are still cameras first, video cameras second after all. I personally would rather have 1600x1200...at least that is the same aspect ratio as the 4/3's sensor.

As the resolution of these panels climb, the image will look more real and less video. Higher resolution will show more detail, which might be good for critical manual focus. Resolution is only one facet of EVFs. There is also refresh rate/process lag which results in real time deviation.
These issues will take another course when OLEDS are introduced into the game.
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tkbslc Forum Pro • Posts: 11,945
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

I think those saying "I'll never give up my optical viewfinder" are probably analogous to those who said they will never give up film. At some point it will reach "good enough" status and the advantages will outweigh the disadvantages. Is it today, no. But I bet in 10 years more than half of interchangeable lens cameras will have digital viewfinders.

f8pc Regular Member • Posts: 304
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world?

An EVF would mean running Live View 24/7 and those large DX and FX sensors are going to get awfully hot, no? Is it even possible to implement EVFs in a dSLR because of heat issues?

Then it also deals with battery life--that's one of the great things about dSLRs--a lot more battery.

Finally, I think an EVF is a good idea--it's old stubborn people that are the ones who resist change like film to digital. I don't understand why people say its not enough resolution either. The Nikon D3x has a 640x480 3" LCD on the back and it looks GOOD. Shrink that sucker down to 0.42" and that is a VERY high resolution panel. What's the problem, fellas?

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chuxter Forum Pro • Posts: 21,710
Re: Towards the mirrorless camera

Fabio Amodeo wrote:

This is another step towards the mirrorless camera. Which is not only physically smaller. It also frees lens designers from the huge space between lens last element and sensor, permitting more freedom in lens design. You can put the back element in any position where it can send optimal rays to illuminate the sensor, and this makes lens design more relaxed.

Most people don't have a clue how big an advantage this can be. Mostly just ex-Sony R1 owners...

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Charlie Davis
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Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 31,870
Re: True "non processed" view - the MVF

I have been banging on about the same thing over on the Ricoh Forum - where do you get one? (Or three? ... I want one for every camera with a hotshoe)

Notably I have an Ikodot finder - it is a nice piece of equipment but it does not fold and therefore is bulky on the camera and seems delicate to be stored off camera.

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Tom Caldwell

chuxter Forum Pro • Posts: 21,710
Re: 800x600: what is the resolution of the OVF frosted plastic secondary image?

BJL wrote:

Of the Epson EVF with 800x600x3 resolution, Steve Balcombe wrote:

it's a fraction of the resolution needed to replace an optical viewfinder.

I wonder how much resolution is needed to match an OVF.

OVF "resolution" is a variable.

Note well that the OVF image has far less resolution than the lens or sensor delivers, since it is a secondary image scattered off a frosted glass or plastic surface.

Back in the ancient past (when viewing screens were easily swapped), there were some that had a frosted center area (some with micro-prisms there) and a clear view everywhere else. That let you focus in the center area and gave a wonderful "aerial" image w/o any limits to resolution.

Of course, if one wants high VF resolution for focus checking and can use "focus assist" zooming, then an EVF (or LCD) beats the stuffing out of any OVF for both size and detail of the preview image. Especially as the Live View approach avoids any of the back- or front-focus errors than OVF's can have.

My guess is that the biggest need for EVF improvement is speed, not resolution: handling fast panning and low light.

Yes, this is the next area for improvement.

So the Epson improves on the "800x600x3" Panasonic G1/GH1 EVF in the most important area, but I doubt the problem is fully solved.

Yes, we need more speed.

I suspect that we are at the start of a rush of competition and improvement in EVF's, to capitalize on things like still/video convergence in "system" cameras.

That's a great vision for the future!

Will true DSLR's add EVFs, maybe as add-ons, for video usage?

If "they" have good sense...

You might be interested in this "futurist" view:

http://www.1derful.info/Words/EvilCameraProject.htm

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Charlie Davis
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Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 31,870
Re: True "non processed" view - the MVF

Easy enough to bang out from a suitable machine shop - its a wonder no one does it.

They are a bit complicated for a home handyman so they would not have a lot of opposition. Sell them to retail for $20 and you must sell a million - even if you never use it - what a conversation piece - great for those new fangled micro 4/3 cameras with no built in finder - I could even put one on my Canon 5D and pretend it was a Speed Graphic (smile).

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Tom Caldwell

Humboldt Jim Senior Member • Posts: 1,071
Re: Epson's new EVF--brave new world? Not relevent

It doesn't matter if its "to small for a DSLR" because its not designed for DSLRs. Why in the world would you need a flippin' mirror if you have a good EVF?

HJ

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