Why should we/me blame Pentax?

Started Sep 23, 2009 | Discussions
jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Why should we/me blame Pentax?

You know I was thinking why hurt and blame Pentax, a group of great guys who can build some first class dSLRs and lens over Hoya being the one who gives Pentax orders a budget and may say if you don't make a profit we will have to close the doors, lets not let Hoya's name go unnoticed for the wrong doing to SDM owners, its Hoya's problem.

Believe it or not by forcing Pentax to fix the lens may force Hoya to close the doors. Hoya should be blamed not Pentax. I think we should re-word this as Hoya, because Hoya is slipping under the radar their image is not being hurt right now and their business, but if we go right for the head maybe Hoya will take notice and do whats right and take the loss for future gain. Why blame Pentax and tarnish its name when its really Hoya? Want a great future for Pentax? Lets keep Pentax is it is, a great dSLR company and blame the one who is really not caring "Hoya" towards its customers.

I understand we must communicate with Pentax to get things done, but Pentax must communicate with Hoya to get the OK... So include both their names at least. Maybe its silly but...

This is very bad timing for Pentax, Hoya is putting lots of pressure on Pentax you can be sure of that do or die?

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 6,759
I think you are right
godfrog Senior Member • Posts: 1,463
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

Does it matter? Pentax is a part of Hoya now, they agreed to be, any restrictions "from above" exist because Pentax chose that situation.

Blaming Pentax or Hoya is really the same, its one company now. "Pentax" is a purchased label that Hoya puts on cameras and lenses.

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OP jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

Does it matter?

Yes/no adding Hoya's name is appropriate because they do have separate management, Pentax USA is run by Ned B if he tells Hoya that something should be done and Hoya says no, which is more than likly the case, it hurts Pentax name in the eyes of the public only. You see people will find these posts for years and may not know Hoya owns Pentax; probably many now don't know; not everyone reads like us Pentax fans about Pentax. If you put Hoya's name into the blame its name is tarnished as it should be, in this new era of information it will stay for a long time. Now if Pentax is sold or goes into an alieance its name is not devalued as much as it is being now. If this only hurts Pentax its value goes down, if the public sees it as a Hoya management issue Pentax reputation is somewhat and justifiable so, saved a bit.

Go back and read the posts, people are blaming Ned B, and Pentax management. Its not Pentax its Hoya's management and there is some distinction. And its not fair to blame one 'man', is it?

Just as they are being stratigic so must we.
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godfrog Senior Member • Posts: 1,463
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

I dont agree, Ned-Bs problems are Pentax problems, and in turn, Hoyas problems.

"Blame Hoya" seems like comfortable fanboyism. If something is good, praise Pentax. If something is bad, blame Hoya for not giving more money to Pentax.

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OP jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

seems like comfortable fanboyism

No thats not logical, put blame were it belongs. What if Ned B really wants and believes Pentax should act, but Hoya is stopping them? Its not reality, when Chevy or Pontiac did poor they did not get the blame GM got the blame

If Hoya does own Pentax why would you want to leave thier name out of it? Its not being a fanboy, its just that Hoya is the money keeper, they run Pentax. So why tarnish Pentax name when its Hoya? I still don't understand that logic?

Go to this web site

http://www.hoya.co.jp/english/company/company_01.html

Hoya makes money, Pentax makes cameras. Its that simple.
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OP jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

OK look at this page and you see Hoya 100% owns Pentax, But Pentax is more than just a name.

http://www.hoya.co.jp/english/company/company_02.html

Now click products and go to this page
http://www.hoya.co.jp/english/business/business_05.html

And Hoya says-

"Developed using PENTAX’s industry-leading technology and years of

camera-manufacturing experience, these digital SLR cameras offer outstanding performance and excellent operability"

Hoya speaks of Pentax as an entity with dSLR manufacturing know how.

This is why I separate them, because even Hoya separates 'what their job function is' Pentax makes cameras, lens. Hoya manages and funds it and owns it name. They bought Pentax know how and intellectual property, Hoya can not make cameras.

Even dealers blamed Hoya not Pentax when Hoya took over Pentax for not allowing product to be on their shelves. Hoya immediately raised prices... and Hoya's story with Pentax continues.
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OP jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

Don't mean to come of as mad or anything believe it or not I am half asleep LOL, but yes I do enjoy Pentax equipment and really don't feel its right just to blame them. Here is a summary from Hoya on Pentax up to now.

"The Pentax business leverages its optics and precision processing technologies to develop

and sell a broad selection of products, including medical devices, digital cameras, lens

units for digital cameras, and microlenses. In the medical devices market, the division is

focusing on endoscopes with the expectation that medical care will progress and the

market will grow in the long-term. In cameras, the Company is working to develop unique
products based around the globally recognized PENTAX brand.

In the fiscal year under review, sales fell significantly in the second half of the year due to

the slowdown in demand for digital cameras and lower product prices. Currency exchange

rates had a major impact on overseas sales, which account for a large proportion of total

sales, resulting in a significant decrease in revenue. The digital camera division performed
poorly, resulting in both lower sales and an operating loss for the division."

Pentax is losing big, and now with SDM? If the only thing that can save Pentax is an alliance with another company that's great, but if this SDM issue keeps growing and people from all brands know well of it, even an alliance may not be enough to keep Pentax alive if significant damage is done to its credibility in customers eyes in the future. That's why I feel it important for people to also know its not just Pentax buy Hoya to help save a little bit of Pentax name for the future.

I understand your point of view, but remember this is strategic planning, if it helps Pentax and yes us Pentax fans, that's all that matters, and IMO it is not unfair to Hoya.

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Jarda_Houdek Contributing Member • Posts: 812
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

Blaming for what?

I don't really understand where is the problem. I can read RH's blog and see issues everywhere. But this guy is nuts. I don't say 100% of those devices are perfect, but frankly, if you want that, you'd have to pay Leica price.

I can't imagine better APS-C camera than K-7 manufactured with current technology. And yes, my office colleague has the D300 and I tried it.

So let's blame Hoya for producing the K-7. Like anyone could do better...
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Philnw2 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,683
Pentax is a brand, all staff work for Hoya (nt)
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Tan68
Tan68 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,778
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

i think i follow what you are saying...

pentax is able to do better, but is limited by hoya so pentax is not to be sullied.

but, pentax is what is, now. whether your personal opinion is more/less or better/worse pentax is what it is, now...

maybe pentax is better than hoya lets it be. ??

if someone is unhappy with pentax and thinks they are held back by hoya, this person could decide to stick with pentax because they know the betterness is there (only masked by hoya) and wait for the betterness to reassert itself... but, that is like buying on margine. the betterness may remain hidden or wither and pass into the west.

anyway, it is fine to consider potential.
but, more weight should be placed on current performance.

if i were unhappy with pentax, thinking that hoya is the cuprit but pentax is still fine so i will decide i am happy again might require rose colored glasses.

jamesm007 wrote:

If Hoya does own Pentax why would you want to leave thier name out of it? Its not being a fanboy, its just that Hoya is the money keeper, they run Pentax. So why tarnish Pentax name when its Hoya? I still don't understand that logic?

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ropen Senior Member • Posts: 1,479
its human nature

People here too easily forgot all the pre-Hoya talk when Pentax was about to launch a new camera. Let me refresh your memory it was something along the lines of: "it's either a new sensor, or newer AF or faster fps there is no way they can do couple or all at the same time. And oh, don't even think about a new body or new exposure system! And what's wrong with non sealed kit lenses for a w.s camera?". Ring any bells?

Then came Hoya and people are too happy to max out threads about doom and gloom and are blind to see that Hoya really invests, the new models are both very nice and quite different from the me too canikon knock offs and seem to be commercial hits (ok, it's too early to say either way for K-x but I think it will be the best seller of all Pentax dslrs ever made).

Another endemic problem with this forum is the disproportionate number of North Americans compared to Europeans and almost no Japanese members. Nothing bad in it but especially US members tend to extrapolate their dissatisfaction (e.g. lack of Pentax carrying shops, poor marketing) to the entire world and that's simply not true. In fact I bet Pentax sells in Japan alone a lot more gear than in a more than double population sized US) and EU is still their biggest market and our prices are larger than in the US especially for lenses. So it's not a black and white situation.

Lastly like any forum out there we have our part of either disgruntled or overenthusiastic people with personal agendas that are more than happy to steer any discussion away from technical matters into bashing/praising without any arguments. Again human nature that drives some of us to validate our personal choices of getting/staying in or out of Pentax system.

Finally the removal of the lens roadmap could be seen in 2 ways: lack of commitment for the future or resolving some technological issues before moving forward. It's a personal choice because there are little facts to prove either way but for me the fact that Hoya cancelled/postponed all the design that were all but finished means they send the engineers back to the "drawing boards". This is similar to what they done with the K-7 moving couple steps above and closer to canikon (and btw changing the original Pentax blueprint in process).

Regards,
Radu

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soheil Veteran Member • Posts: 3,025
Re: Pentax is a brand, all staff work for Hoya (nt)

So, you mean the same. If you want your voice to be heard, you should yell at Hoya. If you don't want Hoya to destroy the reputation of Pentax, you should yell at Hoya. And, if you're admiring the K7, appreciate Hoya.

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zxaar Veteran Member • Posts: 4,457
Re: Pentax is a brand, all staff work for Hoya (nt)

soheil wrote:

So, you mean the same. If you want your voice to be heard, you should yell at Hoya. If you don't want Hoya to destroy the reputation of Pentax, you should yell at Hoya. And, if you're admiring the K7, appreciate Hoya.

exactly.

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one among others

Charlie Self Veteran Member • Posts: 3,924
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

jamesm007 wrote:

Does it matter?

Yes/no adding Hoya's name is appropriate because they do have separate management, Pentax USA is run by Ned B if he tells Hoya that something should be done and Hoya says no, which is more than likly the case, it hurts Pentax name in the eyes of the public only. You see people will find these posts for years and may not know Hoya owns Pentax; probably many now don't know; not everyone reads like us Pentax fans about Pentax. If you put Hoya's name into the blame its name is tarnished as it should be, in this new era of information it will stay for a long time. Now if Pentax is sold or goes into an alieance its name is not devalued as much as it is being now. If this only hurts Pentax its value goes down, if the public sees it as a Hoya management issue Pentax reputation is somewhat and justifiable so, saved a bit.

Go back and read the posts, people are blaming Ned B, and Pentax management. Its not Pentax its Hoya's management and there is some distinction. And its not fair to blame one 'man', is it?

Just as they are being stratigic so must we.
--

As far as blaming Pentax goes, it seems simple to me: whose name is on box and the product?

Strategy implies some kind of battle. When I buy a lens or camera, the last thing I want is a battle. I want a reliable, reasonably priced camera that does what I ask of it. If one brand name can't produce that for whatever reason, I'll move on to another.

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OP jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

Strategy implies some kind of battle. When I buy a lens or camera, the last thing I want is a battle. I want a reliable, reasonably priced camera that does what I ask of it. If one brand name can't produce that for whatever reason, I'll move on to another.

Honestly no one still understands. Its not a battle its saving "Pentax" name for the future and its talent; Hoya did not just make up dSLRs by themselves. OK maybe I should say it like this 'yes' Hoya owns Pentax they are one and the same.

Don't read too much in it, don't read it defensively. The strategic plan is 'only' for people who want Pentax to be here in 10 years. Its deflects 'all' the blame from Pentax which may or maybe not really hurt its name and credibility with the public, and as we know Hoya does call the shots.

Below is from "Business Week 8/26/96" Strategic Planning is planning ahead, like a coach, a chess player. It can mean more than that for a business, much more, but its the context I am using it above.

'REBOUND.' Many mainstream consulting firms, including onetime strategy leader BCG, say their strategy business is booming. Meanwhile, a new wave of gurus and consulting firms has emerged with a wide assortment of perspectives and tools for companies to create strategy. A recent study by the Association of Management Consulting Firms found that executives, consultants, and B-school professors all agree that business strategy is now the single most important management issue and will remain so for the next five years. 'We are seeing strategy make a rebound,' says Vijay Govindarajan, a well-known strategy professor at Dartmouth College's Amos Tuck School of Business Administration. 'Strategy has become a part of the main agenda at lots of organizations today.'

But if strategic planning is back with a vengeance, it's also back with a difference. Gone are the abstraction, sterility, and top-down arrogance of the old model. The death knell for that approach was sounded in 1983 when General Electric Chairman John F. Welch dismantled the company's once heralded planning department, where as many as 200 senior-level staffers used to crank out vinyl-bound reports. Welch found GE planners too consumed with operating and financial details instead of competitive positioning and the creation of future markets and too divorced from the day-to-day reality of line managers.

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OP jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Re: its human nature

Lastly like any forum out there we have our part of either disgruntled or overenthusiastic people with personal agendas that are more than happy to steer any discussion away from technical matters into bashing/praising without any arguments. Again human nature that drives some of us to validate our personal > choices of getting/staying in or out of Pentax system.

Pulling a lens road-map does not mean they told the engineers to go back to the drawing board if the issue is known then no need to draw ;). A SDM AF system is not rocket science, its an easy system to design but engineers 'do' try to save money... but in this case given past history, the poor part assembly reason for SDM failure given by the tech, IMO there is a strong chance of it probably was poor QC there is nothing to change on the drawing board except make the SDM system easier to assemble for better QC. I think some may have a personal agenda of some kind, I am not sure right now but some forum members seem very hostile of late and I don't know why? Go back and read my posts, over half of them are to help others not critique others or a group. Those not open to suggestion or discussions would never make it in the board room. Everything thrown on the table must be looked at, and the person throwing the idea not criticized. This foster a atmosphere of true growth, when people are not impeded with walls of hostility and or anguish

Its not serious its only cameras and lens. The technical merits of the issue should be discussed as well but if your going to blame, than I feel we should blame the 'right' people. The people who can help you are really sitting in a building with Hoya written on it. People are frustrated at the big money they spent and may loss, I can understand this and don't have any SDM lens. But want to help those who do.

If some want to bring it to the next level in the USA, every single person in the world who has an issue should contact the BBB in Colorado they influence business more than you may know. I have had to use their "power to influence" twice and have won my case 'twice' because of the BBB. Bombard the BBB with warranty complaints of SDM failure and see what happens next. If they truly see an injustice to people they can and have the resources to get things done like bring it to publics attention. No guarantee it will help, but writing letters to Pentax won't do much as Pentax hands as with the AF system are tied and they are reading this now and are doing strategic planning ;).

Now this post as my others gave the forum ideas, and did not overly critique. Too many posts of late don't do anything to really help

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OP jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Re: its human nature

BTW, yes a lack of a lens road-map could also mean... but no one knows what it says, it can be anything no need to read anything into it. Yes Hoya 'had' to invest real money into pentax but they had poor planning and vision. IMO they bought during the dSLR boom and saw gold in their eyes, now they don't want to risk much, (the need for an alliance) and yes this does hurt Pentax. Samsung new camera system is taking a tremendous amount of money to design and build I bet more than all of Pentax engineering budget. Moreover it a complete risk, it may fail, but they have strategic plan and are investing in the future. Samsung knows those first generation non-SLRs are not going to sell like hot cakes... Hoya raised prices in the USA and demanded a minimum from dealers, this took Pentax off the store shelves and they quickly learned as outlined in Hoyas paper below that they could not ask for such prices.

This is a great paper to read from Hoya, its Hoya's strategic plan for the future. However remember to read careful as most if it is a 'positive' spin for investors.

http://www.hoya.co.jp/english/investor/AR2009e_04.pdf

They do seem to be trying but a couple of sentences bothers me. Hoya speaking of Pentax-

"In terms of product strategy, we emphasized both market positioning
and sought to establish a low-cost operating structure in
light of the challenging business environment. We moved quickly to
implement early structural reforms, including integrating and eliminating
manufacturing bases in Japan and transferring production
lines overseas. We also undertook a review of all costs. Despite
these efforts, however, sales in the Imaging Systems business fell
year on year against the backdrop of worsening market conditions.

future Strategies
We will promote further cost-structure reforms by continuing to
enhance production efficiency and to rigorously cut fixed costs
across the board, from materials to personnel.
In product development, we are working to differentiate our
products by leveraging the Pentax brand and creating product
development roadmaps that accurately reflect market needs.
Meanwhile, we are pursuing a wide range of possibilities, including
alliances with other companies, as we strive to accelerate the
process from development to commercialization.
In digital camera products, we are using Pentax’s outstanding
features that enable shooting in different environments—including
water-, moisture- and shake-resistance and durability—to create unique
products guided by the core concept of “outdoor” photography.
Planning and development have proceeded based on this new
concept, and in June 2009 we released the vanguard K-7 model.
Full of functionality, it has drawn attention from a broad user base.
In interchangeable lenses as well, the merger with Hoya created
an integrated system for development and production, from glass
materials to lens modules.

And yes Japan is Pentax biggest market but its not enough, another quote from Hoya.

Fiscal 2009 Business Overview and Results
In the fiscal year under review, the market for digital cameras took a
sudden turn, shifting from robust conditions in the first half of the
year to harsh conditions from the third-quarter onward. This aboutturn
was caused by the global economic slowdown centered on the
United States, the main demand driver in this market. The recession
resulted in softer demand for both SLR and compact digital cameras,
leading to higher inventories and rapid price declines.

Yes the USA is a large buyer of cameras...

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OP jamesm007 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,663
Re: Pentax is a brand, all staff work for Hoya (nt)

soheil wrote:

So, you mean the same. If you want your voice to be heard, you should yell at Hoya. If you don't want Hoya to destroy the reputation of Pentax, you should yell at Hoya. And, if you're admiring the K7, appreciate Hoya.

Yes one did get it. Its may seem unfair and harsh but Hoya also decided to let customers take a large financial loss for a QC problem? So would it be more fair to blame one man?

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Katsura Contributing Member • Posts: 588
Re: Why should we/me blame Pentax?

Are you kidding me?

From where I am from, if a company designed and executed a sub-standard product and it is found to be defective due to a design flaw, then they should be held responsible to get it fixed. Sometimes consumers needs to fight for this right, but manufactueres have a responsibility here.

So you are saying consumers should let them off because if they try to get the justice done then no more Pentax? Well, wellcome to the real world, either tough up and hang with the big boys ( not necessary mean a s big a product line, but at least in the company and product integrity and quality). Actually as a niche player they HAVE to get their quality down, because they can't compete on marketing and agressiveness of product pushing.

As for what's in a name, if my Panasonic TV breaks down, I go seek Panasonic, Matsushita maybe the parent company but it's up for Pano to get their acts together. Same with the Pentax/ Hoya situation.

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