Canon Full Frame compact camera...

Sounds like a great idea if you don't physics, optics or reality get in the way! Wouldn't you think that if it were possible, competitions would have produced one long ago?
--
Bob

'I can look at a fine art photograph and sometimes I can hear music.' - Ansel Adams

 
Correct, and as you can see the above lens is a bit faster than
f10-f15, but not a lot.
So, in order to achieve the same DOF control yet maintaining the same size with the FF film compact,
there are two options for digital compact such Canon Gseries :
  • Increasing the sensor size, with the same lens (f/2-3)
  • using 1/1.7" sensor & faster lens than f/2
Which is the possible option ?
What's the pros & cons between them ?

Thanks for the reply, Lee Jay

Brian
 
Obviously the technology exists, and the physics allow for it.
If that's what you think then you need to research this issue more thoroughly. You can start with the a review of technological issues that Leica had to overcome in creating the M8.
 
i don't actually think it would cost that much. the E-P1 with prime
lens only costs $900, and that will come down with time. and i would
hazard a guess that a fast standard prime for a larger sensor would
be in fact easier and cheaper to produce.
I think sensor size is roughly proportional to the area of the sensor. The price per wafer will be roughly equal, and they can get many more small sensors from one wafer.
So a FF sensor is still quite a bit more expensive than a micro 4/3 sensor.
 
So, in order to achieve the same DOF control yet maintaining the same
size with the FF film compact,
there are two options for digital compact such Canon Gseries :
  • Increasing the sensor size, with the same lens (f/2-3)
Which makes the lens (and therefore the camera) much larger.
  • using 1/1.7" sensor & faster lens than f/2
Yes, but that is really, really difficult as f2 is already pushing the envelope for a zoom.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
I think sensor size is roughly proportional to the area of the
sensor.
No its not. Larger sensor = higher cost per unit of area, because of processing difficulties and higher defect rates. Full-frame sensors cost around 10 times as much as APS-c sensors.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Sounds like a great idea if you don't physics, optics or reality get
in the way! Wouldn't you think that if it were possible,
competitions would have produced one long ago?
A few years ago almost all manufacturers ceased "advanced" compacts for fear of hurting entry level dSLR and dSLR accessory sales.

model lines terminated- PRO1, R1, C8080, DSC-V3, DSC-F828

crippled- the S70 was replaced by the S80 which lacked RAW

delayed- After a long delay the G6 was replaced by the G7 which lacked RAW!

Obviously decisions dictated by economics and not by prestige or pride.

Finally, things are slowly moving back in the right direction...
 
Obviously the technology exists, and the physics allow for it.
If that's what you think then you need to research this issue more
thoroughly. You can start with the a review of technological issues
that Leica had to overcome in creating the M8.
Okay, read up on that.

Yes, designing and manufacturing their first effort at a digital M line camera was complicated and difficult, but obviously not impossible. I am certain, the standard they held themselves to did not make the process any easier.

Fortunately for Canon, they have immense experience making small digital cameras, pro digital cameras and dare I say a few innovative digital cameras.

So now, let's see them make a FF... well, okay, an APS pro level compact. Something to be proud of.
 
If they ever do produce such an animal it will almost definitely be a
niche market product. The file size alone from 21MP FF camera's is
more than most people are willing to deal with. And that's where the
rubber meets the road for the companies making the cameras, IMO of
course!
--

ugh. who said just because it's a FF sensor it had to be 21mp? that's the last thing i want to deal with. in my opinion canon went a bit too far with the res of the 5DmkII sensor. 10 would be plenty. as i'm sure most would agree.

but the way this thread is panning out, it looks like i might as well pack up and go home, just like everyone else. it's all too hard apparently. i just want to pretend for a minute that someone else wants the same sort of camera that i want. a camera like they used to make, but digital. and i also want to pretend that a company that knows how to make one (ie canon) would actually make it for me.

the people who built the red one cinema camera did just that. they went around to prominent film makers and cinematographers and asked them for a wish list. what would constitute the perfect movie camera. forgetting about what equipment currently existed and what limitations currently existed they pencilled out this dream camera.

then they built it.

guess what. it's costs a fraction of what the other cameras cost and did a whole lot more.

maybe, just maybe, if we just voiced our opinion of what we WANT, instead of what we THINK is possible, our dreams might just come true.

but in the mean time i might just find a 2nd hand 5D on eBay, stick a 50mm 1.8 on the front of it and go about taking some photos.

i might just
 
but in the mean time i might just find a 2nd hand 5D on eBay, stick a
50mm 1.8 on the front of it and go about taking some photos.

i might just
You'd probably end up a lot happier with that approach. As bad as the 50/1.8 is for focusing, it'll still crush any CD focusing system.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
ljfinger wrote:
I've always said a large sensor will force you to give up one these to get it:
  • Zoom range
  • Lens speed
  • Camera size
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
There many digital compacts offered by manufacturers,
and there are options for us to make, and give up one like you said above,

Sigma DP1 & 2 : give up the zoom range.

If Sigma put a larger sensor than that, it would give up the lens speed even more (if maintaining the same size)

Canon G10 : give up the sensor size.

Canon 5D / 5DII : give up the camera size.

IMHO, they had made compact cameras with every option they could offer.

Lee Jay, I would like to know your tought about this :

If there are 2 camera : X & Y
camera X & Y have the same size
camera X & Y have the same zoom range (I'll pick 28-140mm as G10)
camera X & Y have the same MP number

Camera X has : 35mm FF sensor, 28-140mm f/14 lens
Camera Y has : 1/1.8 " sensor (multiply factor 5) 5.6-28mm f/2.8 lens

Wouldn't they produce similar output ?
similar noise performance ?

My conclusion :
GIVE UP THE LENS SPEED (on the larger sensor camera) IS EQUAL TO
GIVE UP THE SENSOR SIZE ITS SELF.

Am I correct here ?

Thanks, Lee Jay

Brian
 
If they ever do produce such an animal it will almost definitely be a
niche market product. The file size alone from 21MP FF camera's is
more than most people are willing to deal with. And that's where the
rubber meets the road for the companies making the cameras, IMO of
course!
--

ugh. who said just because it's a FF sensor it had to be 21mp? that's the last thing i want to deal with. in my opinion canon went a bit too far with the res of the 5DmkII sensor. 10 would be plenty. as i'm sure most would agree.
Well, that's the normal progression with sensors whether we like it or not. Our opinions don't carry as much weight as we would like them to. I think even Canon saw the writing on the wall with the 5D2 21MP sensor and offered two sRAW sizes for the times when full RAW would just be too much.
but the way this thread is panning out, it looks like i might as well pack up and go home, just like everyone else. it's all too hard apparently. i just want to pretend for a minute that someone else wants the same sort of camera that i want. a camera like they used to make, but digital. and i also want to pretend that a company that knows how to make one (ie canon) would actually make it for me.
Here again, our opinions mean more to us than to others. Is it too hard to make? Maybe. It will certainly be expensive. The real question is: Is there a market for this? How many posts have you seen where someone wanted a FF P&S?
the people who built the red one cinema camera did just that. they went around to prominent film makers and cinematographers and asked them for a wish list. what would constitute the perfect movie camera. forgetting about what equipment currently existed and what limitations currently existed they pencilled out this dream camera.

then they built it.

guess what. it's costs a fraction of what the other cameras cost and did a whole lot more.
I'm not familiar with the Red One but you suggested they talked to "prominent film makers and cinematographers" when designing the product. I don't fit into that category (prominent), do you?
maybe, just maybe, if we just voiced our opinion of what we WANT, instead of what we THINK is possible, our dreams might just come true.
I often wonder how much time the camera makers spend in the photography forums listening to our opinions. I see Chuck Westfall chiming in from time to time about products so it would seem they do spend some time interfacing with the masses. Canon did release a firmware update for the 5D2 to allow manual exposure in movie mode, adding features via firmware is something they rarely do. They (Canon) get kicked in the head by the Nikon users for this a lot. Nikon doesn't seem to have a problem with adding new features to existing products and I like that but not enough to switch over, at least not yet. ;)
but in the mean time i might just find a 2nd hand 5D on eBay, stick a 50mm 1.8 on the front of it and go about taking some photos.
I think the 5D is an awesome camera from what I've seen. There's just something about the images coming off that sensor that really appeal to me. I also admire the 1D3 images too. And both are relatively low density sensors by todays standards.

I couldn't agree more about "go about taking some photos"!
i might just
 
Just to reiterate my point, look at the size of the sensor in the
G10, its a joke!
Look at the compromise you have to make as the sensor grows ... either very limited zoom range or no zoom at all ... for a general purpose pocket cam, that introduces severe limitations, doesn't it?

Which is to say ... all those other cams have lenses that are a joke!

Just playing Devil's advocate .... your vehement attack on the sensor is predicated upon acceptance of severe limitations in versatility, which you have repeatedly failed to acknowledge.
--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
So now, let's see them make a FF... well, okay, an APS pro level
compact. Something to be proud of.
And for me the same goes with Nikon ... I have CLS flashes ... it's time for the big boys to jump in the ring ...

My guess, though, is that they are waiting for two things: (a) to see if there really is a market, as defined by volume of sales , not volume of posts :-); and (b) to strike a fatal blow to the smaller players with a seriously strong entry ...

Can't wait to see what they do ...

--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
No it doesn't, but that's the way the DSLR is going. I fully expect, at some point in the future, possibly not that far off, a 35mm sensor will become too small for the amount of MP's being crammed on them. Some would say we are at that point now with the 1Ds and 5D2. I look forward to a larger than 35mm DSLR sensor in these cameras. You watch, MF size sensors will eventually show up in 35mm type DSLR's. The MP race will continue as who doesn't want more and more resolution. Everything will simply have to move up. To get more MP's and better IQ along with that, your APS-C sensors in the 50D type camera will have to move to APS-H. Just as well, your APS-H(1D) will eventually require a FF sensor to maintain high IQ with ever growing high MP counts.. Your 1Ds/5D2 class FF sensors will have to move to a MF size sensor if the MP race continues on it's merry way and if IQ is to remain solid. Then that brings us to compacts. They too will all have to move up. We already see this happening with Sigma, 4/3's and the new digital Pen.

--

The only true wisdom I have to impart is to say.....get out there and shoot! Anything else is subject to interpretation.
 
It might "stand to reason" but it's wrong. Bigger sensor = less
critical of glass quality.

There's a $30 lens in here, a few ~$100 lenses, a $1000 lens, and a
$1700 lens as well. Do you see that level of difference?



--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
I don't want a zoom so I don't have much sympathy for the sensor size concessions made to accommodate a zoom.

I would have been happy for the G10 to have a larger sensor and a fixed lens.

MY S70 has a pretty small sensor, but its a smaller camera and I'm okay with it. And I almost never zoom out of the widest setting.
 
No it doesn't, but that's the way the DSLR is going. I fully expect, at some point in the future, possibly not that far off, a 35mm sensor will become too small for the amount of MP's being crammed on them. Some would say we are at that point now with the 1Ds and 5D2.
Think about this: imagine taking the "joke" sensor in the G10 and growing it to FF dimensions. I haven't done the math but can you imagine the resolution of such a sensor? I know nothing about sensor design or manufacturing so maybe it's just not possible. Even if they grew it to the APS-C sensor size it would be awesome. The downside for most would be the huge file sizes.

As far as reaching the resolution limit? I'm guessing they still have a ways to go before running out of headroom.
I look forward to a larger than 35mm DSLR sensor in these cameras. You watch, MF size sensors will eventually show up in 35mm type DSLR's. The MP race will continue as who doesn't want more and more resolution. Everything will simply have to move up. To get more MP's and better IQ along with that, your APS-C sensors in the 50D type camera will have to move to APS-H. Just as well, your APS-H(1D) will eventually require a FF sensor to maintain high IQ with ever growing high MP counts.. Your 1Ds/5D2 class FF sensors will have to move to a MF size sensor if the MP race continues on it's merry way and if IQ is to remain solid. Then that brings us to compacts. They too will all have to move up. We already see this happening with Sigma, 4/3's and the new digital Pen.
Medium format is a hard sell, you need deep pockets to go down that road. I'm guessing it would mean replacing all your glass and that is a major sticking point for me.
--

The only true wisdom I have to impart is to say.....get out there and shoot! Anything else is subject to interpretation.
Yes, let's go out and shoot something!
 
I don't want a zoom so I don't have much sympathy for the sensor size
concessions made to accommodate a zoom.

I would have been happy for the G10 to have a larger sensor and a
fixed lens.
Which probably makes you less than 1/10 of 1% of the market ... which is why you need to frame such strong assertions with caveats. Else, others will argue with you until they are blue in the face ... as I am doing :-)
MY S70 has a pretty small sensor, but its a smaller camera and I'm
okay with it. And I almost never zoom out of the widest setting.
Again ... a rare shooting style ...

--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
http://kimletkeman.blogspot.com
 
Lee Jay, I would like to know your tought about this :

If there are 2 camera : X & Y
camera X & Y have the same size
camera X & Y have the same zoom range (I'll pick 28-140mm as G10)
camera X & Y have the same MP number

Camera X has : 35mm FF sensor, 28-140mm
f/14 lens
Camera Y has : 1/1.8 " sensor (multiply factor 5) 5.6-28mm
f/2.8 lens

Wouldn't they produce similar output ?
similar noise performance ?
Yes and yes.
My conclusion :
GIVE UP THE LENS SPEED (on the larger sensor camera) IS EQUAL TO
GIVE UP THE SENSOR SIZE ITS SELF.

Am I correct here ?
Almost. There are some secondary advantages to going with a larger sensor. They include the one we've talked about already - the longer lens can have a little larger aperture and thus it doesn't have to go all the way to f14 but rather to something more like f5.6-f11. That's an advantage. Also, the larger sensor has more dynamic range. Finally, if you can use longer exposure times, the larger sensor has an IQ advantage that the smaller sensor cannot attain because it can't go below its base ISO. Maybe that last one requires and illustration:

G10, 28mm-equivalent, f2.8, 1/500th, ISO 80
FF, 28mm, f11, 1/40th, ISO 100

The second one wins easily if the slow shutter speed wasn't a problem.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 

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