K7 Full review

Started Jun 19, 2009 | Discussions
Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,160
Re: What are you complaining about

dotnik wrote:

Me neither but most people still look at the ratings:

K-7: 86%
D90: 91%
D300: 93%

Hmmmm --- 91% .... hmmmm ... OK ... says me nothing. You might be right of course. Maybe the percentage from reviews from this site is important for how many cameras are sold. Or maybe not. I dont know.

And - personally I dont buy a camera body - I buy a camera system. If I am not a newbie of course - but then I buy a K-m. So - is the discussions here not exaggerations?

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,160
Re: Those are by far the worst images

Lance B wrote:

Would you accept a review of a car from me, especially if I kept
getting the fact wrong about the cars ability, or from a motoring
journalist who knwos what they are talking about?

I was only partly serious.

When there are factual faults in the review then it of course make the review less interesting. And there is in this review.

But I do still claim that taking good images is not necessary. You might be able to judge a camera and even images - without being able to produce stellar images yourself.

You dont have to be a good driver to be able to judge a car - but maybe you shall know things about cars.

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,160
Re: Those are by far the worst images

Roland Karlsson wrote:

But I do still claim that taking good images is not necessary. You
might be able to judge a camera and even images - without being able
to produce stellar images yourself.

Having looked at he samples section - I must give you a point though. The images are really bad - and very few. Whats the reason behind showing those?

So - in this case - I agree. Its probably useless.

In general - please look at some of the DPReview samples. Not all reviewers here are stellar photographers. But they still has a professional way of testing.

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dotnik Veteran Member • Posts: 5,565
Re: What are you complaining about

Roland Karlsson wrote:

dotnik wrote:

Me neither but most people still look at the ratings:

K-7: 86%
D90: 91%
D300: 93%

And - personally I dont buy a camera body - I buy a camera system. If
I am not a newbie of course - but then I buy a K-m. So - is the
discussions here not exaggerations?

I stand by my evaluation but the K-7 has one thing going for it that no reviewer can affect and that is a plethora of features and good specs. That alone could be a market changing factor. I just predict that if the K-7 changes market shares significantly then it will also change the general "view" of the reviewers.

I agree that these reviews changes very little amongst experienced photographers though but they alone mean less in the grand scheme of things.

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.......
Have a nice day (a picture is worth a thousand words)
Jim

dotnik:
'Don't overestimate technology - nothing is knowledgefree'

Lance B Forum Pro • Posts: 31,842
Re: Those are by far the worst images

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Lance B wrote:

Would you accept a review of a car from me, especially if I kept
getting the fact wrong about the cars ability, or from a motoring
journalist who knwos what they are talking about?

I was only partly serious.

Fair enough.

When there are factual faults in the review then it of course make
the review less interesting. And there is in this review.

But I do still claim that taking good images is not necessary. You
might be able to judge a camera and even images - without being able
to produce stellar images yourself.

It's just that if you are not competent to take photos, then one has to ask what your abilities are and thus if you do not take photos very often or are a novice, then how can we trust your judgement on a camera such as this. For me, I would like to know that the reviewer has very good knowledge and understands all aspects of how a camera works and why.

The comment about underexposure is a case in point. This is how Pentax sets up the exposure of their cameras in order to preserve highlights, so it is how Pentax does things. It's not wrong, just different to the way that Canon or Nikon do it and therefore should not be looked upon as a fault as it was designed that way in the first place.

You dont have to be a good driver to be able to judge a car - but
maybe you shall know things about cars.

Again, I would like to think that a car reviewer knows his cars and how it operates so as we can trust their judgement.

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Lance B Forum Pro • Posts: 31,842
Re: Those are by far the worst images

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

But I do still claim that taking good images is not necessary. You
might be able to judge a camera and even images - without being able
to produce stellar images yourself.

Having looked at he samples section - I must give you a point though.
The images are really bad - and very few. Whats the reason behind
showing those?

So - in this case - I agree. Its probably useless.

In general - please look at some of the DPReview samples. Not all
reviewers here are stellar photographers. But they still has a
professional way of testing.

Yes, I agree. The reviews by DPR are generally very exacting and accurate with their facts. Whilst not all their photos are of great compositional value, most are of situations that test the metering, show off the DR, show the colour balance and WB accuracies etc.

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alanschamber Senior Member • Posts: 1,200
Re: Those are by far the worst images

MajStriker wrote:

alanschamber wrote:

Yes, I've seen worse here. And surely most of us also take worse
also, and just delete them so no one sees them. So what??? Those
photos are still garbage. And the DPR photos of the K20, at least
were trying the camera in different situations, to see how it worked:
try not to blow highlights, retain details in black, and other
things. I cannot say that about those photos this guy published.

Are you serious??? That would be true for Canikon, since most of them
think they are a pro, and don't even know how to even process files,
or why is it better to have 12 bits of color information, rather than
8. Oh, yeah... sure. Those with a Nikon D300 shouldn't know it
because it makes wonderful jpgs... don't be silly. It would NEVER be
better than a good RAW file (close? yes... but even if you have to
change the WB only 200 K, the difference would still be there). And
no... most people who would complain about the IQ of a camera,
already know that the best is only achieved with RAW.

I am being serious. I never implied anywhere that a JPG would be
better or even as good as RAW. That would be ridiculous. What I'm
saying is a reality though. The majority of DSLR users do actually
use JPG settings more often than RAW. That's a fact.

Not at this level of cameras. Most people that take serious photography in this forum actually shoot more RAW than in other forums. There is even people, like me, who it's been 6 months since the last time I shot only JPG (and it was to send fast a shot of a wall to my father). That doesn't mean that the JPG is bad... but that we prefer to have the control.

And.. if it takes forever to review fully a camera: I'd prefer that,
rather than a stupid thing this guy have done, that it actually
didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know from another
sites. I think it was actually more an opinion, rather than any
technical detail, even.

So please... be serious.

Alan.

I'm sure you would prefer that as would we all...next time you're
doing your upcoming camera reviews you go ahead and do that. You'll
forgive me if I understand that the Pentax K7 isn't the only camera
that the world has produced and that this reviewer doesn't want to
spend months reviewing, compiling and organizing meticulous photos
for a free review with each possible JPG setting.

Look, we'd all prefer to have just as much information as we could on
the new K7 but we got to be realistic, this is just the first of many
reviews that will come out on the new K7, some will have more detail
and some will have less. I think the important thing to take away is
that the review is quite positive. The really great news is about the
ISO performance, as well as the improved AF results. Those were areas
that received some criticism in the K20D and it's been obviously
improved, don't get caught up because the reviewer made some mistakes
regarding Pentax History. I think we can accept the good while
reasonably discounting the bad. To completely discredit ALL of this
reviewer's comments because of one or two erroneous statements is
foolish. At least he's had some time with the K7...to my knowledge no
one that has posted in this thread has had that experience. Someone
with an experience is never at the mercy of someone who has not.

If you don't want to do it... then don't. And no, it's not a positive review, if you think a little more about it. Look at the ratings of the other cameras. It's like saying that you are good for working for a company, but in the other hand show everyone that you would recommend at least 5 people over you. Oh, yeah... thank's for telling me I'm good.

And yes... Mousehill has that experience, and have already uploaded photos that are at least one hundred times better than those seen there. And... we haven't even seen them in real size.

Alan.
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Alan Granger
OP Alan Granger Contributing Member • Posts: 564
Re: Those are by far the worst images

Before I started this thread, I posted a comment about the grips for K10's and K20's and the mag over ss body in their user review section. They have not posted it.

The issue of underexposure can be annoying. However, as stated, above it does help prevent blown highlights, which suits me fine. Having shot and still do shoot slides I under expose them about the same as my K100 and K20 do. The fact that the LCD review shows them brighter is a non issue. The histogram should be turned on. I pay attention to the LCD review only to check framing.

I get very annoyed by all reviewers(includes DPR) of any more advanced camera making a big deal one way or the other about JPG performance. How many times have you read a reviewI suspect most purchasers of an advanced camera like the K7 of any manufacturer rarely shoot anything but RAW. IMO JPG performance should be good only on beginner cameras that offer scene modes. Although, on my Canon I shoot almost all JPG's since I'm shooting burst for sports and want to avoid buffer overload.

If this camera had been released by Canikon the price would have been much closer to $2000, than $1000.

I am looking forward to, I hope, some very positive reviews from all you early adopters.
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KALEL33 Senior Member • Posts: 2,797
Re: Those are by far the worst images

Lance B wrote:

It would seem that this guy is some sort of Canon or Nikon apologist
and wants to see the K7 fail and he therefore sees any reference
that shows it in a negative light as being correct regardless of
whether the review shows blatant inaccuracies and that the reviewer
seems to have little talent.

No, that's where your blatant fanboyism defense mechanism kicks in to disparage anyone that doesn't toe the Pentax fanboy party line. I've been keeping up the the K7 because I'm looking at a possible switch out of Canon, because I don't like the direction their going in with MP being the end all of what a camera should improve upon. It's a toss up between Nikon and Pentax, and a lot rides on how well the AF does with the K7. If it's as slow and tracks like previous Pentax cameras then it's a no, but if it does then the K7 will probably be my next camera.

yana36 Contributing Member • Posts: 973
Re: Those are by far the worst images

KALEL33 wrote:

No, that's where your blatant fanboyism defense mechanism kicks in to
disparage anyone that doesn't toe the Pentax fanboy party line. I've
been keeping up the the K7 because I'm looking at a possible switch
out of Canon, because I don't like the direction their going in with
MP being the end all of what a camera should improve upon. It's a
toss up between Nikon and Pentax, and a lot rides on how well the AF
does with the K7. If it's as slow and tracks like previous Pentax
cameras then it's a no, but if it does then the K7 will probably be
my next camera.

K-7's AF is better than Canon 40D/50D/5D, Oly E3 and very close to D700/D300.

Tan68
Tan68 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,778
Re: i figured out the battery grip comment !!!

nosnoop wrote:

...merely pointing out some blatant factual error or ignorance on the reviewer's part. Like battery grip being the first for Pentax, ...

the article states:
Not least because there’s an optional battery grip available

another way to say this would be:
Not least because there’s a battery grip available

adding "optional" in front of "battery", i think he means the AA battery magazine for the grip

If I Am Right, it is still confusing.
he should have said:
there's an optional grip available that receives either Li or available AA

then he also says the camera is sealed at 77 locations. 77 metering points aiding focus has already been pointed out. he was mesmerized by Se7ens. i think the article is a masonic code

or, is the camera sealed at only 77 spots ?

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binky Senior Member • Posts: 1,074
Re: K7 Full review whoie
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wait for the in depth pro review and owners samples to come out
don't buy into the review

Yem Contributing Member • Posts: 715
Exactly!

gkreth wrote:

"The Pentax K-7 provides rather exceptional image quality in terms of
noise, but completely unravels itself with consistent underexposure."

As long as it's consistent, it seems like a littler EV comp wold
address the issue.

I think this again is Pentax's more conservative approach to
metering, to avoid blown highlights.

it's when the metering is INCONSISTENT that drive me crazy....

I can see how it might get annoying if you were constantly switching between raw and jpeg (where you want even exposure because it's the final product) in a single shoot. But seriously, who does that?

Lance B Forum Pro • Posts: 31,842
Re: Those are by far the worst images

KALEL33 wrote:

Lance B wrote:

It would seem that this guy is some sort of Canon or Nikon apologist
and wants to see the K7 fail and he therefore sees any reference
that shows it in a negative light as being correct regardless of
whether the review shows blatant inaccuracies and that the reviewer
seems to have little talent.

No, that's where your blatant fanboyism defense mechanism kicks in to
disparage anyone that doesn't toe the Pentax fanboy party line.

Ahh, the old fanboy label to try to bolster your flawed argument. Show me ANYWHERE where I said that the K7 was a good camera? All I did was bring into question a review that plainly showed blatant flaws and gross inaccuracies and also question your wholehearted agreeance of that very same flawed review. So, just because I question the flawed review and your devotion to it, I am now I am a fanboy? Give it up pal.

I've
been keeping up the the K7 because I'm looking at a possible switch
out of Canon, because I don't like the direction their going in with
MP being the end all of what a camera should improve upon. It's a
toss up between Nikon and Pentax, and a lot rides on how well the AF
does with the K7. If it's as slow and tracks like previous Pentax
cameras then it's a no, but if it does then the K7 will probably be
my next camera.

Goody for you.

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Tan68
Tan68 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,778
Re: WHO says that they have a "full production" unit ?-- not the author!

this interesting.
i noticed the permutations but didn't realise the significance.

Brian Thomas wrote:

This claim to have a "full production" or alternately "full firmware" is also made as part of an obvious "Get Googles Attention" scheme -- popular wisdom has long been that Google ranks words in links higher than regular text. See how the editor tries out different possible search combinations in the links below instead of more sensibly sticking with one way of saying it:

article says > ?> ?> The long-standing Nikon D300, for example, has a 51-point AF system that sounds frightfully better - at least on paper.

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Why does 51-point AF sound better than 77-point AF ?

you say 77 point autofocus. you may have gotten that from this comment in the article:
...utilising 77 metering segments .. for improved autofocusing

the Pentax don't got 77 focus points.
the inaccuracies make for misleading conclusions.
this is why the article is dangerous.

although, in this case, the confusion worked to Pentax advantage if it appears they have 77 focus points...

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KALEL33 Senior Member • Posts: 2,797
Re: Those are by far the worst images

Lance B wrote:

Ahh, the old fanboy label to try to bolster your flawed argument.
Show me ANYWHERE where I said that the K7 was a good camera? All I
did was bring into question a review that plainly showed blatant
flaws and gross inaccuracies and also question your wholehearted
agreeance of that very same flawed review. So, just because I
question the flawed review and your devotion to it, I am now I am a
fanboy? Give it up pal.

My "wholehearted agreeance"? Pull one, just one, post where I even said anything about the agreeing with the review, other than that I've seen worse photos by other photographers.

I would believe you think it's a great camera because you already ordered it. I wouldn't buy a body unless I thought it was a good camera.

At the Canon forum, we have fanboys galore in that reviews are panned because they don't hold the Canon bodies up to the highest light. It seems that every forum pans every review to fit their view and gives excuses why the review came out differently from their perspective.

Lance B Forum Pro • Posts: 31,842
Re: Those are by far the worst images

KALEL33 wrote:

Lance B wrote:

Ahh, the old fanboy label to try to bolster your flawed argument.
Show me ANYWHERE where I said that the K7 was a good camera? All I
did was bring into question a review that plainly showed blatant
flaws and gross inaccuracies and also question your wholehearted
agreeance of that very same flawed review. So, just because I
question the flawed review and your devotion to it, I am now I am a
fanboy? Give it up pal.

My "wholehearted agreeance"? Pull one, just one, post where I even
said anything about the agreeing with the review, other than that
I've seen worse photos by other photographers.

To be arguing for a flawed review you must be in agreeance with it.

I would believe you think it's a great camera because you already
ordered it. I wouldn't buy a body unless I thought it was a good
camera.

At the Canon forum, we have fanboys galore in that reviews are panned
because they don't hold the Canon bodies up to the highest light. It
seems that every forum pans every review to fit their view and gives
excuses why the review came out differently from their perspective.

How on earth does what happens in the Canon forum apply to me? The review is flawed yet you still accept it and argue for it. That is blind logic. Why would you argue for a flawed review? Brand bashing? Your use of the term fanboy is not a way of winning an argument, it just shows that you are unwilling to argue the facts. Stick with your Canon, or go to Nikon as I am sure you're better suited to them.

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headmj Contributing Member • Posts: 609
Re: K7 Full review

Not enough here to get me to upgrade from my K20.
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KALEL33 Senior Member • Posts: 2,797
Re: Those are by far the worst images

Lance B wrote:

Stick with your Canon, or go to Nikon as I am sure you're better suited to them.

Ah, the arrogance continues with the elitist type. Glad you know my style and preferences to make that decision. How could I have ever come up with that myself. I'm elated that there are people, like you, who know more than everyone else and can make that decision for me.

I will guarantee if a review comes out that is not of the highest praise for the K7 that you will pan it as bias or just a horrible review, because you knew it was perfect before any review. You already ordered it so it has to be great and nobody can say your decision was flawed.

dudlew Regular Member • Posts: 453
Re: Those are by far the worst images

KALEL33 wrote:

Lance B wrote:

Stick with your Canon, or go to Nikon as I am sure you're better suited to them.

Ah, the arrogance continues with the elitist type. Glad you know my
style and preferences to make that decision. How could I have ever
come up with that myself. I'm elated that there are people, like
you, who know more than everyone else and can make that decision for
me.

I will guarantee if a review comes out that is not of the highest
praise for the K7 that you will pan it as bias or just a horrible
review, because you knew it was perfect before any review. You
already ordered it so it has to be great and nobody can say your
decision was flawed.

I am in total disagreement with you on your point KALEL33. I am not backing Lance or anybody else, but to say that the review was good thorough and very accurate and informative is like saying a Hyundai pony is in the same league as a BMW M5.

I may not agree with Lance's words or how he uses them, but it makes no sense to defend a flaw. The facts about the K 7, K20, and all Pentax cameras are readily available all over the internetavailable, yet he gets the basic info of the camera wrong. Go figure.

To also compare the photos of a REVIEWER, with the average Joe is also plain WRONG. Why should I accept a professional review of a kitchen knife from someone who cant use it properly?? Similarly why accept a camera review about a semi pro camera from someone who is not willing to post process, or shoot raw or mess with the settings to tailor the results to you. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR.

I do not expect a glowing review of everything. All things have their fault, and nothing is perfect, but if I am reviewing a car that has track aspirations, and I don't drive it on the track, or at least try it there, then whatever I say has no value. The soccer mom won't buy the car because the ride is harsh and bone jarring, and there is barely enough space for groceries let alone the kids. But if I left out this piece... but on the track or on the back roads the car is a dream to drive, it is nimble, powerful, the steering feel is great, the brakes are fantastic and it has an engine to die for..... How can my review be complete and wholly communicate the purpose of the car.

The reviewer obviously seems to feel that the K 7 is an upgrade from a point and shoot and should behave as such. Therefore he is a knit wit by all means. You don't buy a D300 if all you are going to do is family shots. You buy it for the creative latitude it gives you over all below it, not the scene modes. If you want a dslr for family shots, get a D40 or and XS or a KM or an E520 with the kit lens. These cameras give you the punch you need straight out of jpeg and all is good.

So if you can't understand the point Lance is making, then you are arguing for the sake of it, not because you are right or have a valid point.

D
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Now a happy Pentaxian!! (K200D & K100D)
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