New York City Police Statement About Photography

Started May 26, 2009 | Discussions
jb_va2001 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,741
At last, common sense overcomes fear mongering. /nt

MylesDavid wrote:

Thought this may be on interest. Even Print it and keep it in your
camera bag.

David Myles

Photography is freedom

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
JB

Rootbeer Senior Member • Posts: 2,311
How about that!! What's next??

MylesDavid wrote:

Thought this may be on interest. Even Print it and keep it in your
camera bag.

David Myles

Photography is freedom

Interesting..

Look at the context here.. We have a HUGE metropolitan area, consisting of several million people milling about, where billions of dollars are made, that contribute greatly to the USSA, & World economies, where 10 terrorists successfully killed over three thousand people from all over the world, including many fine NYPD officers, and rescue workers, which caused a major disturbance in the US & World economies, who have been reminded the rights of photographers,...(probably because of Youtube IMO).. so that they don't become targets of police aggression.

That in it's self is remarkable, since photographers have been unfairly targeted for conducting an activity protected by the United States Constitution. I hope that memo is followed by other police departments, including ones in cow-towns like mine in comparison to NY City, where I have personally experienced problems with bad cops who unlawfully target photographers.

sigh....

............Have we sunk so low in the training of our police officers that we have to remind them of foundational rights every US citizen, and tourist has supposedly had?

I think that is a good start.. Unfortunately, websites like PoliceCrimes.com exist because of some things like this, where some police have been completely out of line, which has caused embarassment to their departments, and loss revenue from tax-payers who fund the lawsuits brought against them.

What's next? A memo going out to all NYPD to stop the practice of searching vehicles, businesses, and homes without probable cause? What should we do then, celebrate that the cops are being reminded to follow the LAW they are supposed to uphold...?

....sheeesh!

JP

-- hide signature --

Check out my slide show & enjoy the tunes:
http://www.Myspace.com/JPphotographer

lanef Forum Pro • Posts: 10,317
Re: It's hard to see this. . .

Paul Grupp wrote:

. . . as anything but really good news for professional and amateur
photographers alike.

The paranoia and crazy restrictions of rights that followed 9/11 was
completely ineffective in reducing terrorism risk, and tore at the
very fabric of what the United States is supposed to be about.

This document is a breath of fresh air and reason, and whoever came
up with it is to be applauded, IMHO.

Wish this could trickle to the UK as over there it is going in the opposite direction.

http://www.pbase.com/lanef/galleries
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38519080@N00/sets/72157594443652688/

Charlie Self Veteran Member • Posts: 3,924
Re: How about that!! What's next??

Rootbeer wrote:

Interesting..

Look at the context here.. We have a HUGE metropolitan area,
consisting of several million people milling about, where billions of
dollars are made, that contribute greatly to the USSA, & World
economies, where 10 terrorists successfully killed over three
thousand people from all over the world, including many fine NYPD
officers, and rescue workers, which caused a major disturbance in the
US & World economies, who have been reminded the rights of
photographers,...(probably because of Youtube IMO).. so that they
don't become targets of police aggression.

That in it's self is remarkable, since photographers have been
unfairly targeted for conducting an activity protected by the United
States Constitution. I hope that memo is followed by other police
departments, including ones in cow-towns like mine in comparison to
NY City, where I have personally experienced problems with bad cops
who unlawfully target photographers.

sigh....

............Have we sunk so low in the training of our police
officers that we have to remind them of foundational rights every US
citizen, and tourist has supposedly had?

I think that is a good start.. Unfortunately, websites like
PoliceCrimes.com exist because of some things like this, where some
police have been completely out of line, which has caused
embarassment to their departments, and loss revenue from tax-payers
who fund the lawsuits brought against them.

What's next? A memo going out to all NYPD to stop the practice of
searching vehicles, businesses, and homes without probable cause?
What should we do then, celebrate that the cops are being reminded to
follow the LAW they are supposed to uphold...?

....sheeesh!

You seem to think that it's a simple matter to keep thousands of regulations and laws in the forefront of one's mind while doing a job that might require instant application of one or more of those regulations or laws.

As photographers, we have a primary concern: our photography. A cop has a primary concern, too: protecting the public. Sometimes those two are going to clash. A reminder such as the on for the NYPD helps to prevent such clashes from becoming far more frequent.

Police work is difficult. Some cops are better at it than others. Like doctors and dentists and shrinks and the rest of us, half of them are below average. It's a wise citizen who allows for that.

-- hide signature --
Rootbeer Senior Member • Posts: 2,311
Re: How about that!! What's next??

Charlie Self wrote:

Rootbeer wrote:

Interesting..

Look at the context here.. We have a HUGE metropolitan area,
consisting of several million people milling about, where billions of
dollars are made, that contribute greatly to the USSA, & World
economies, where 10 terrorists successfully killed over three
thousand people from all over the world, including many fine NYPD
officers, and rescue workers, which caused a major disturbance in the
US & World economies, who have been reminded the rights of
photographers,...(probably because of Youtube IMO).. so that they
don't become targets of police aggression.

That in it's self is remarkable, since photographers have been
unfairly targeted for conducting an activity protected by the United
States Constitution. I hope that memo is followed by other police
departments, including ones in cow-towns like mine in comparison to
NY City, where I have personally experienced problems with bad cops
who unlawfully target photographers.

sigh....

............Have we sunk so low in the training of our police
officers that we have to remind them of foundational rights every US
citizen, and tourist has supposedly had?

I think that is a good start.. Unfortunately, websites like
PoliceCrimes.com exist because of some things like this, where some
police have been completely out of line, which has caused
embarassment to their departments, and loss revenue from tax-payers
who fund the lawsuits brought against them.

What's next? A memo going out to all NYPD to stop the practice of
searching vehicles, businesses, and homes without probable cause?
What should we do then, celebrate that the cops are being reminded to
follow the LAW they are supposed to uphold...?

....sheeesh!

You seem to think that it's a simple matter to keep thousands of
regulations and laws in the forefront of one's mind while doing a job
that might require instant application of one or more of those
regulations or laws.

....Which are you referring to, the unlawful searches conducted without consent, the outright manipulation of the truth spoken by officers to attempt to gain entry to private property, or the Constitutional amendments, such as the 1st one that refers to freedom of speech? What..? That's too difficult to remember..? Should police not be required to know, and put into practice, that they are public servants, who do not need to get permission from anybody to file a complaint form, to be photographed, or recorded? That they have no right to harass or detain me simply for going about an activity that is more legal than walking a dog?

.....Give me a break, are you suggesting that police officers are too stupid to remember anything, because there are so many to remember, and therefore, they can use that excuse for when they cross the line, and trample on our civil rights??!!

....Please, help me to understand your point a little better.

As photographers, we have a primary concern: our photography. A cop
has a primary concern, too: protecting the public. Sometimes those
two are going to clash. A reminder such as the on for the NYPD helps
to prevent such clashes from becoming far more frequent.

....Why should they clash if the officers know not to mess with photographers, or anyone who is recording/ capturing images, who isn't interfering with their activity?

Police work is difficult. Some cops are better at it than others.

....That I know. One of my best friends is a former cop. His brother is actively serving on the force. Many of my classmates in school became cops, many of them 2nd generation. I recently shot a wedding for a friend of mine who is both a professional photographer, but a cop as well. A business associate of mine is attempting to get into the FBI right now. I know many others on a personal basis who are professional, and if read correctly, I mentioned that before, that I am referring to "some" cops. I've been pulled over by very professional and polite police officers, and I have put up with some serious bull$$$$ from a few bad apples, who make my friend's jobs that much harder. & I'm just a photographer with a clean record. I follow the law as close as I can, which my driving record reflects as well.

Like doctors and dentists and shrinks and the rest of us, half of
them are below average. It's a wise citizen who allows for that.

.....Well, when in doubt, or in question, the officer can contact his supervisor, or DA's office, or Mayor's office for advice on how to proceed if in doubt. Most other professions don't have the amount of audio and video recording and real-time monitoring from the station that police have at their disposal to help protect, and enforce the law either.

-- hide signature --

Sorry Charlie, I have high standards when it comes to law enforcement. Especially in this day and age.

JP
--
Check out my slide show & enjoy the tunes:
http://www.Myspace.com/JPphotographer

Kuota Forum Member • Posts: 52
Re: New York City Police Statement About Photography

Hey Miles, where did you get this Operations Order from? Just curious.
--
I'll try anything twice

AntnioGM Senior Member • Posts: 1,694
This is plain common sense.

Good sensible decisions to avoid stupid problems with tourists.

António
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/91908602@N00/

 AntnioGM's gear list:AntnioGM's gear list
Olympus E-1 Nikon D3200 Sony a7 Olympus PEN-F Olympus E-M1 II +20 more
Anastigmat Forum Pro • Posts: 12,664
Re: An outbreak of common sense for a change

MisterBG wrote:
What a wonderfully level-headed and sensible document.
I was particularly impressed with the wording of paragraph 2.
A set of guidelines like this should be issued to all law enforcement
authorities, and particularly to "rent a cop" private security guards.
I await a UK version, but I doubt we'll get one.
--

To Err is Human, To really foul things up you need a computer.

Guidelines are only good for the good cops. There is no shortage of guidelines that are sensible, and then there is the law. But only good cops will follow the law.

lanef Forum Pro • Posts: 10,317
Re: At last, common sense overcomes fear mongering. /nt

When you get rid of the fear mongering leaders, that fear mongering system which was becoming ingrained in society starts to fade away. Breathe in breathe out.
http://www.pbase.com/lanef/galleries
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38519080@N00/sets/72157594443652688/

Charlie Self Veteran Member • Posts: 3,924
Re: At last, common sense overcomes fear mongering. /nt

lanef wrote:

When you get rid of the fear mongering leaders, that fear mongering
system which was becoming ingrained in society starts to fade away.
Breathe in breathe out.
http://www.pbase.com/lanef/galleries
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38519080@N00/sets/72157594443652688/

Unfortunately, the two lead jackasses are still braying.

-- hide signature --
Tiffles Veteran Member • Posts: 4,974
never had problems in NY

NY police officiers have always been very cool and openminded in any regard towards me - they don't even need a paper like this. Such operative orders however would make a lot of sense in smaller towns and rural areas- where cops can be, um, special.

O.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ollivr/
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/ollivr/popular-interesting/
http://seen.by.spiegel.de/ollivr-1

 Tiffles's gear list:Tiffles's gear list
Sigma DP1 Sigma DP1 Merrill Sony RX1R Kodak DCS Pro 14n Nikon D700 +7 more
RoelHendrickx
RoelHendrickx Forum Pro • Posts: 26,455
One of the disadvantages of digital photography

I have always felt that digital photography makes us, photographers, MORE vulnerable to harassment, censorship etc.

With analog film, there is no way of asking an individual to give immediate access to what he was photographing. What was an inquisitive person going to do ? Grab or seize the camera and have the film developed just to check?

Now, with digital that is possible, and a photographer who refuses to show somebody the pictures that are on his card, makes himself look suspect.

Same with deleting.

You make a picture of someone in a public place (just an innocent street picture, nothing special, perverse or whatever), he notices you, comes up to you, demands to see the picture and demands you to erase it. People think they have this right. Many photographers comply, if only to avoid hassle.

This would not have happened with film : who wanted to take the risk to force a photographer to take out his film and destroy the whole roll of images? That was a pretty large gamble, possibly resulting in liability.

So in that sense, I think it is VERY good that police departments (and other authorities, but also individuals) should be reminded of the fact that it should be far from obvious to go up to a photographer and ask to see, much less delete, his pictures when taken in a public place and without committing a crime or probable cause of having committed a crime.

So I applaud this.

-- hide signature --

Roel Hendrickx
--
lots of images: http://www.roelh.zenfolio.com

my E-3 user field report from Tunisian Sahara: http://www.biofos.com/ukpsg/roel.html

snowboard9 Contributing Member • Posts: 711
Re: New York City Police Statement About Photography

Excellent, useful post. Thank you

I have printed it !!

I live in Dallas and will see if a similar document is available.

philmar Senior Member • Posts: 2,475
Re: "... attempt to turn us into terrified sheep."

great thread - thanks for posting
--
-----------------
Phil M. - Toronto, Canada

If you have some time to chew on a few of my photos, please go to: http://www.flickr.com/photos/12624630@N02/

 philmar's gear list:philmar's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EF 16-35mm F2.8L USM Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM Canon EF 70-200mm F4L IS USM +1 more
art1sta Contributing Member • Posts: 669
Re: New York City Police Statement About Photography

I am passing by NY on holiday again (...if i win the lotery I am moving there for good lolol) and was thinking about taking a monopod. You need a license for tripod but monopods dont stick out? Anyone know if this is OK?

And the bridges.... I am looking forward to walking along the Brooklyn bridge and taking lots of photos is this OK?
God how confusing, it is after all a touristic city.

Rdefen Veteran Member • Posts: 3,509
Re: New York City Police Statement About Photography

I wouldn't worry about taking photos in the city. No one cares. Use some common sense and you'll be fine.

R Stacy
R Stacy Veteran Member • Posts: 3,143
Excellent point !

RoelHendrickx wrote:

I have always felt that digital photography makes us, photographers, MORE vulnerable to harassment, censorship etc.

With analog film, there is no way of asking an individual to give immediate access to what he was photographing. What was an inquisitive person going to do ? Grab or seize the camera and have the film developed just to check?

Now, with digital that is possible, and a photographer who refuses to show somebody the pictures that are on his card, makes himself look suspect.

Same with deleting.

You make a picture of someone in a public place (just an innocent street picture, nothing special, perverse or whatever), he notices you, comes up to you, demands to see the picture and demands you to erase it. People think they have this right. Many photographers comply, if only to avoid hassle.

This would not have happened with film : who wanted to take the risk to force a photographer to take out his film and destroy the whole roll of images? That was a pretty large gamble, possibly resulting in liability.

So in that sense, I think it is VERY good that police departments (and other authorities, but also individuals) should be reminded of the fact that it should be far from obvious to go up to a photographer and ask to see, much less delete, his pictures when taken in a public place and without committing a crime or probable cause of having committed a crime.

So I applaud this.

-- hide signature --

When told the reason for Daylight Saving time the old Indian said... 'Only a white man would believe that you could cut a foot off the top of a blanket and sew it to the bottom of the blanket and have a longer blanket.'

 R Stacy's gear list:R Stacy's gear list
Sony a7 II Sony FE 24-70mm F4 OSS Google Pixel 2 XL
Craig Gillette Veteran Member • Posts: 9,909
Re: New York

It pains me to say this but I really think the Mayor's office took the lead in this area and they worked out a serious city policy well before the NYPD finally got around to putting this out. I'd imagine there was some wailing and gnashing of political teeth over this (PD vs Mayor, etc.). I haven't read the statement recently but it supports the position worked out by the Mayor's Office in response to some widely publicized incidents. In fact, after some web discussions, I'd e-mailed the Mayor's Office (they have a film section supporting commercial filming, etc.) and asked what the true policies were. They answered, were efficient and timely and then, before the new policy hit the streets, they e-mailed again and provided me an advance copy and provided links to the site where it was posted. One could only hope that city offices were always this helpful.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/film/html/news/070108_moftb_adopts_rules.shtml

You'll read a ton of comments about New York that simply aren't true. There are some grumpy folks (perhaps a few more in NY than other places) but if you don't block sidewalks, etc., with tripods or get in traffic, etc., there are essentially no restrictions.

rojj Regular Member • Posts: 220
Re: New York

If it was up to our mayor, you would be paying for every photo taken of any bit of NYC. Fortunately his business sense won out over his petty and greedy nature given the fact that the city is in such dire straits financially. He needs every tourist dollar available since the is absolutely nothing else happening here to generate income. Telling all those tourists that they can't take photos would be economic suicide. Bloomberg is the perfect example of what happens to a major city when it's run by a corporate fascist...

June 29, 2007

" New rules being considered by the Mayor’s Office of Film, Theater and Broadcasting would require any group of two or more people who want to use a camera in a single public location for more than a half hour to get a city permit and insurance.

The same requirements would apply to any group of five or more people who plan to use a tripod in a public location for more than 10 minutes, including the time it takes to set up the equipment.

the New York Civil Liberties Union… also warns that the rules set the stage for selective and perhaps discriminatory enforcement by police.

“These rules will apply to a huge range of casual photography and filming, including tourists taking snapshots and people making short videos for YouTube,” said Christopher Dunn, the group’s associate legal director.

Mr. Dunn suggested that the city deliberately kept the language vague, and that as a result police would have broad discretion in enforcing the rules."

mlpics Regular Member • Posts: 374
Re: New York City Police Statement About Photography

No worries. Walk the bridge, and 3 out of every 4 people will be taking pictures.

I have heard that photographing bridges and tunnels is illegal, and heard other people say that's nonsense. I lean towards the nonsense view, especially as nobody has been able to produce a link to a law that says it's illegal.

Enjoy your trip here, our city is marvelous...

-- hide signature --

Michael Landry Photography
Proud Forty-D owner!
http://www.michaellandry.com

 mlpics's gear list:mlpics's gear list
Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EOS M3 Canon EOS R Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM +11 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads