Diglloyd's Quote About NX 2.2

Started Apr 2, 2009 | Discussions
thomasfxlt Regular Member • Posts: 248
Re: there is no nikon software support, IMO

Nikon needs to sell their sell their software assets to a competent developer who will have some kind of beneficial arrangement with Nikon for the use of it's intellectual property. I wouldn't want this to be an exclusive arrangement, but it could be "preferential". Adobe, Apple and others could be licensees of the same intellectual property, allowing Nikon to either benefit from fees from these developers or through the sale of plug-ins to Aperture, Lightroom, PS etc...

They need to do this right now while they still have something to sell. The "reverse-engineers" are looming.
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Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 25,835
Re: there is no nikon software support, IMO

Adobe, Apple and others could be licensees of the same intellectual
property

They will not be willing to use it, have no intention to develop it further for new cameras; they show the same "we are the best" approach, listening to nobody and ignoring the experience of the best film and camera makers in the world.

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Thom Hogan Forum Pro • Posts: 13,659
Re: there is no nikon software support, IMO

nilux wrote:

Maybe Nikon should provide their raw conversion as a library.

They do. But last time I checked it wasn't threaded and came with a lot of legal stuff that companies like Adobe, et al., would not agree to.

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dannv Veteran Member • Posts: 3,416
Re: there is no nikon software support, IMO

Iliah Borg wrote:

Adobe, Apple and others could be licensees of the same intellectual
property

They will not be willing to use it

based on your other post regarding code quality, they wouldn't be able to use it. this puts Nikon in a tight spot with only three options: 1) rewrite from scratch which is relatively expensive, time consuming and comes with no guarantees of real success, 2) contract externally which is difficult to control and puts their production cycles at risk or 3) continue to patch spaghetti code. this is not a new or unique problem to Nikon. and, given the critical operational concerns, many companies end up choosing option 3. unfortunately trying to 'fix' your way out of a really deep quality hole is a recipe for a mediocre result unless you have a really top notch software visionary leading the group. ...dav

Thom Hogan Forum Pro • Posts: 13,659
Re: there is no nikon software support, IMO

dannv wrote:

Thom Hogan wrote:

The "raw conversion" part is what gets Nikon in trouble. They want to
control it. They want the in-camera engine and the software solution
to be the same. In theory, that's commendable. But in practice, it's
been the source of problem after problem.

i'm a bit surprised you stopped here (ignoring the irrelevant part i
snipped) without going into what i expect is the primary reason they
want to control it -- Nikon can't go to market with a new body
without software supporting the latest RAW.

While true on the face of it, there's no difference here than any other platform (OS, game, phone, etc.). I spent many years of my high-tech career managing groups that supported third party software interaction with platforms, or sometimes even doing it myself. The bottom line is that if you want third party support for your product on day one, you have to invest in getting that. Nikon has a mostly antagonistic, nearly hands off relationship with third party vendors, not a close, communicative one. The only thing stopping all third-party converters being ready on day one of product launch is Nikon's practices.

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Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 25,835
Re: there is no nikon software support, IMO

First and foremost Nikon need a re-write of SDK. This does not interferer with anything in production cycles. The only thing that really prevents it is that they need to hire people and trust their loyalty while paying and treating them well.

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Thom Hogan Forum Pro • Posts: 13,659
Re: there is no nikon software support, IMO

dannv wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

Adobe, Apple and others could be licensees of the same intellectual
property

They will not be willing to use it

based on your other post regarding code quality, they wouldn't be
able to use it.

This is exactly what happened with encrypted white balance conversion. And it wasn't just code quality, but also legal obligations and timing issues.

this puts Nikon in a tight spot

I hate to say it, but I think Nikon is already in a tight spot regardless of whether others use their code or not. Everything Iliah wrote is true. The problem is that, over time, such coding becomes impossible to maintain and move forward. Thus:

with only three
options: 1) rewrite from scratch which is relatively expensive, time
consuming and comes with no guarantees of real success,

True, but it'll have to happen someday because legacy code eventually becomes a huge liability when it can't be iterated as fast as good, modern code others are using.

2) contract
externally which is difficult to control and puts their production
cycles at risk

Yes. I wouldn't do that. It's the old make or buy issue, but with something that's as integral to the product as data conversion is, I would want it tightly held and defined by my technical team. This is why I keep writing "Nikon needs to invest in their software group."

or 3) continue to patch spaghetti code.

If you have seen the code, you'll know that it's getting very close to the point that Aldus once had with text handling in PageMaker: you can't change it any more, you have to use it as a black box engine. The problem with this is that when the underlying physical architecture changes, and it will someday, you're up a creek without a paddle.

this is not a new or unique problem to Nikon.

Nope. However, Nikon appears to think that just continuing the current approach is the one that is the best. History has proven it is not. I've watched far too many companies code themselves into a corner.

and, given the critical operational
concerns, many companies end up choosing option 3. unfortunately
trying to 'fix' your way out of a really deep quality hole is a
recipe for a mediocre result unless you have a really top notch
software visionary leading the group.

Absolutely right.

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Kerry Pierce
Kerry Pierce Forum Pro • Posts: 19,757
Re: there is no nikon software support, IMO

Thom Hogan wrote:

Personally, I think they should simply contract out the work to a
real software company, an adobe competitor, like bibble or RML.

I wouldn't agree with that. Nikon should invest in becoming a real,
quality software developer, or they should simply abandon their
efforts and openly support independent developers. It's the "in
between" choices that tend to get you in trouble.

This I don't understand. Nikon isn't likely to ever release open specs for raw conversion. I just don't see how that would ever happen. To be a quality software company, you have to provide users what they want and do real beta testing, which means listening to users and providing viable support. Where has nikon demonstrated any inclination to do any of this?

The "raw conversion" part is what gets Nikon in trouble. They want to
control it. They want the in-camera engine and the software solution
to be the same. In theory, that's commendable. But in practice, it's
been the source of problem after problem. The encrypted white balance
issue was part of this same chain of thinking.

Precisely. It's obvious that thinking still rules. If there hadn't been such an uproar over the WB encryption issue, I'd bet that the entire NEF file would be encrypted now, so where is the light at the end of the tunnel?

SNAFU, some folks will use whatever nikon puts out and ignore any issues, while others will simply ignore whatever nikon puts out and use what works for them. Nikon apparently likes it that way.

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Kerry Pierce
Kerry Pierce Forum Pro • Posts: 19,757
Re: there is no nikon software support, IMO

Iliah Borg wrote:

Personally, I think they should simply contract out the work to a
real software company

Few if any would agree IMHO. Nikon are insisting on using their SDK

I'm not talking about using the SDK. I'm talking about nikon contracting with a developer with the intent of giving them the open specs, not a black box. That's the only way it would work.

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Rocco Galatioto Contributing Member • Posts: 568
My two cents...

I was never able to warm up to NX. I got it when I git my D300 last summer and could never figure out what to do as the interface was very strange. Maybe I did not give it enough time. I liked Capture four that I used with the D1X, D2h, and D2X. I could use two monitors and it gave me a rational interface that was very intuitive.

When I got my D700 I did not even bother to try the v2 version. I got Lightroom 2 and PS Elements 7 and get nice results. I'm olf fashion enough to try to get the picture right -as much as possible, that is - when i take the shot. I do not do all the manipulations that are now possible as I find them alien to my way of photographing.

Perhaps the author over exaggerated a bit in his statement. But it was said in a very
entertaining way.
To each his own.

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Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 25,835
Re: there is no nikon software support, IMO

Personally, I think they should simply contract out the work to a
real software company

Few if any would agree IMHO. Nikon are insisting on using their SDK

I'm not talking about using the SDK.

From a curiosity standpoint and to try improving things, I would love to see open specs. From the production point of view, I need parametadata and SDK that allows me to access raw data and metadata, to control the camera, load and read settings.

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