D90 vs. Canon 500D Which one?

Started Mar 27, 2009 | Discussions
sandy b
sandy b Veteran Member • Posts: 9,334
Right, these guys must be dumb too

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/ (appareil1) 294%7C0 (appareil2) 267%7C0 (onglet) 0 (brand) Nikon (brand2) Canon

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Steven Veteran Member • Posts: 4,421
Re: Right, these guys must be dumb too

sandy b wrote:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/ (appareil1) 294%7C0 (appareil2) 267%7C0 (onglet) 0 (brand) Nikon (brand2) Canon
--

Seems that way

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brightcolours Forum Pro • Posts: 15,882
Seems that way indeed

Steven wrote:

sandy b wrote:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/ (appareil1) 294%7C0 (appareil2) 267%7C0 (onglet) 0 (brand) Nikon (brand2) Canon
--

Seems that way
--

For some reason that DXO mark site is threated as gospel the last few months. Yet anyone with a working pair of eyes can see that there is something really wrong with their way of testing, as their "conclusions" and "figures" defy reality.

It really is hard to come up with good measurement methods, and DXO clearly has not come up with good ones.

brightcolours Forum Pro • Posts: 15,882
Re: The 500 will most defintely not beat the D90 @ high ISO

sandy b wrote:

The D90 is somewhat better than the 50D, maybe half a stop.

How sure are you about that? The D90 has better NR, yes.

Including DR. It has better AF,

It certainly has not. The 50D's AF is a better, in speed, tracking and low light ability.
So does the 500D/450D.

Flash assist, flash commander, faster
FPS,

Faster FPS? Since when? Or are you talking about the 500D?

faster start up, less shutter lag, 2 control wheels, top
illuminated panel, better auto ISO, better bracketing, better build,
better viewfinder, penta prism instead of mirror.

Ok, so you are talking about the 500D. Better auto ISO? Are you sure about that? I am not...
Less shutter lag? What do you think that is, and what do you base that on?

Better bracketing? Are you sure? Try doing a -2 0 +2 bracketing? With mirror lock up (since I assume you are thinking of HDR)?

The 500D has better resolution and video. And is aimed at entry
level, which the D90 isnt. The 500D is a fine entry level cam, but it
is not as much camera in my opinion as the D90.

Entry level? It has the SAME specs as a D90. They are the same "level". Entry level is Nikon D60. In my opinion it is as much of a camera as the D90. Both very fine cameras.

PB PM Senior Member • Posts: 1,655
Re: D90 vs. Canon 500D Which one?

Simple question is this, how do you know the 500D is better than the D90? Considering nobody has their hands on one yet (its not out till May), its hard to compare. I get a good laugh out of people with this arugment, but have never used both cameras. Honestly who cares if one camera has a slight edge, use what works best for you.

To the OP. Tell your friend to get the camera that he feels most comfortable with, not which one has higher specs, end of story.
--
Rob - A picture is worth a thousand words, but which ones?

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jonrobertp Forum Pro • Posts: 12,875
Now that is an insult...but hey, we're used to that !!
n/t
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Kim Letkeman
Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,435
well, for example ...

Dan wrote:

What compromises did you have in mind?

The 500d has a lot of pixels ... perhaps there will be a bit of a sacrifice in noise performance. Tests will confirm whether that is true or not ...

All those pixels also require handling in the camera, so if they did not increase processing speed enough then the D90 will feel faster. Again, that will be confirmed by tests and of course empirical use.

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 61,154
Re: Seems that way indeed

brightcolours wrote:

It really is hard to come up with good measurement methods, and DXO
clearly has not come up with good ones.

Their measurement methods are OK, and reasonably rigorous. The major problem is the way that fanboys insist on using the measurements, typically without any understanding of what they mean. The other issue is the oevrall DxOmark. It is ridiculous to propose a simple scalar figure of merit, and even more ridiculous to think because one sensor scores higher on an arbitrary mix of measures that it is 'better' than another sensor. However, taken as what they are, the DxO measures provide a lot of useful information to inform purchase decisions. You need to know what you're looking at, though.
--
Bob

Geoff Bonner Contributing Member • Posts: 752
Re: D90 vs. Canon 500D Which one?

Steven wrote:
Spoken as real Nikon fanboy. I owed both D90 and XSI. Both are very
good. The XSI body is improved over the old rebel and see nothing
wrong with it. I perfer Canons IQ over Nikon. I also like Canons
metering over Nikons Matrix metering. 500Ds video is way better. IMO
the 500D should compete with the D90 fairly. Both have there pluses
and really you cant go wrong with either.

Got to love people that have no idea what there talking about. They
listen to internet chatter and beleive they know it all. I own a 50D.
Whats wrong with there sensor? 50D is the best IQ camera I have owned
yet. You know what its so nice to have ISO 100 instead of the noisey
D300 at ISO 200.

Geoff Bonner wrote:
If the 500D is targeted at the D90, it's going to fall flat on it's
tail unless it's at least a couple hundred bucks cheaper. Even if
the D500 has equal image quality as the D90 (which is doubtful, since
it uses the 50D's sensor), it's focusing performance will likely be
inferior, and it's a given that it's build and ergonomics will fall
well short of the D90.

If they wanted to target the D90, they should have first started by
changing the Rebel's terrible body design.

Steven wrote:
500D is targeted at the D90. That is for sure. As Canon said the 500D
is not replacing the 450D.

Leo wrote:

these two are in different categories. I think - wait for 500D review
to understand the compromise.
Leo

Yes, I'm a Nikon fanboy. I prefer Nikon cameras, and I'm in a Nikon forum where other Nikon users discuss their cameras. I see you read the internet chatter as well. Do you know what you are talking about?

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brightcolours Forum Pro • Posts: 15,882
Yeah, which experienced photographer would want mirror lock up

deepsky63 wrote:

By your line of questioning it sounds like you value things that most
experienced photographers value, so you may want to consider the
Nikon.

If you didn't know much about photography but wanted to impress your
friends with megapixel counts, then the Canon is for you.

And which experienced photographer would value the exposure bracketing with steps bigger than +1 and -1.

And which experienced photographer would value live view with phase detect AF.

And which experienced photographer would value a better lens line up.

And which experienced photographer would value better metering... you are so right!

Go and impress your experienced photographer friends with a Nikon! And with loads of luminance noise due to harsh chromatic noise reduction! And impress your family with jello wobbly home movies from the out of focus kids! Nikon 4ever, experienced photographers!

Mannypr Veteran Member • Posts: 3,363
Re: It's not about dynamic range

It would be interesting to do an experiment. Put here some pictures taken with different cameras , different manufacturers with diferent megapixels and to see who can tell which picture was taken with which camera.I know the outcome of the experiment already but it seems that many of us here in these forums dont.The level of sofistication and image quality in todays cameras makes it practically imposible to determine which is which. The camera does not make the photographer but the photographer makes the camera.

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Mannypr Veteran Member • Posts: 3,363
Re: Yeah, which experienced photographer would want mirror lock up

This is incredible...I've just finish reading every posting on one simple question and it all turn out in all out war between Nikons and Canons.Both cameras are excelent choices Nikon D90 and Canon 500D. In terms of image quality both are excelent up to the point in which nobody in this forum can tell the differences between which photos were taken with which camera so it all boils down to ergonomics and lens selection.

I personally spent 3 months searching the internet my options and in my price range it boiled down to the Canon 50D or the Nikon D90.Went to best buy and fool around abit with both and loved the Canon .It just felt right in my hands .Very sturdy feeling.Ended up buying the Nikon D90.Why? I'am coming from 35mm film cameras.Don't know much about Digital Photography and after reading countless reviews ,( truth be told left me confuse) I ended buying the Nikon because I felt it was more user friendly .

IQ was not a mayor concern to me between both cameras because I knew both were excelent.So my friend , my advice would be wait for the reviews to come out read them , think about the uses your give the camera the go for it and have fun.Almost forgot , another consideration was the usefulness of the camera after I've learn more about digital photography and believe me it will more then meet my demands as I grow in knowledge.

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Leo Veteran Member • Posts: 6,294
Re: D90 vs. Canon 500D Which one?

I want the same: ergonomics with with at least ISO, Metering Mode, + - and AF options on buttons, plus much more...

Internationally recognized photographer Eugene Atget refused to use a small fast camera because as he said it offer faster work than he could think. He always used an 18"x24" camera.
Should we switch to such a monster camera just to start thinking process?
Leo

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PerL Forum Pro • Posts: 14,039
My take

Dan wrote:

I'm trying to recommend a camera to a friend and I'm curious what you
all think of the D90 vs. the 500D.

The thing that hits me first is that the 500D can do 30fps VGA and
720P video with auto focus.

The 500D has a slightly slower frame rate of 3.4 vs the D90's 4.5. I
wonder if this translates to a quicker camera. Higher fps means it's
ready for the next shot in less time right?

The 500D is the most advanced of the compact DSLRs while the D90 is the entry model for the semi pro camera class. What I think is the dividing point is the ability to do serious sports and action.The faster fps and shorter shutter lag makes the difference. The design of the compact DSLRs make them more uncomortable to use with the fast big lenses like 70-200 2.8s.
D90 with 70-200 2.8:

In IQ I believe they are more or less similar (that goes for all the latest 10-15 mp CMOS sensors from Nikon and Canon).

martingrumet Regular Member • Posts: 442
May depend on priorities

I think having autofocus with the video gives the Canon a major advantage, for those who expect to make use of the video function.

The Canon's higher resolution may be an advantage for those who expect to invest in the sharpest possible lenses to be able to make use of those mega pixels. For those planning to use kit lenses or 18-200mm it's pointless to add extra magnification, and I would go with the Nikon's lower resolution in hopes of getting a little lower noise and better dynamic range.

ArtZAngel Senior Member • Posts: 1,027
D90=photos 500D=video

Disclaimer: I am a Nikon "fanboy" after having spent the last 7 years shooting Canon! Canon reserves their better AF and metering for their top two bodies ONLY. Whereas with Nikon you essentially get it with the D300 and up. The D90 still has more accurate metering (which leads to far better flash exposure coverage) and a better AF system than any Canon under $3500. It's funny how I always bring that up and nobody from Canon tries to counter it because they can't! It's all there is B&W! The Canon AF system may focus faster (by faster I am talking milliseconds) but the Nikon AF actually focuses correctly! I would rather have a millisecond slower and in focus than a millisecond faster and out of focus. In other words, the D90 trumps a 50D and in terms of a still camera, and shouldn't even be compared to a 500D. I will grant you that both take amazing pictures- but if one is in focus more often, or has more consistent exposure- which would you want? That said, it is very likely I will pick up a 500D because of it's video capabilities... we do shoot video and 720 @ 30 fps for up to 4-minutes with great lenses is amazing (so long as it really works and does it require a "cool down" period).

So, if you want an OK camera with potentially amazing video, get a 500D. If you want a great camera with OK video, get a D90.

KALEL33 Senior Member • Posts: 2,797
Re: D90=photos 500D=video

ArtZAngel wrote:

So, if you want an OK camera with potentially amazing video, get a
500D. If you want a great camera with OK video, get a D90.

There seems to be a little bit of fanboyism going on on both sides. How can you say it's an "OK" camera? It's not even out yet, but you've already give it the review. Also, you said the difference is for sports, well I wouldn't use a 500D or D90 for sports, I'd use a 40D, 50D, or D300(which are much faster than the D90).

IQ wise, I doubt anyone would ever be able to tell the difference between the two. The person just has to decide what factors are important to "them", not anyone else. Do they need video, ergonomics big, want to do wide range HDRs, want the larger/brighter viewfinder, etc. Both cameras will be able to produce wonderful images and only the person behind the camera will limit it's capabilities.

Niteman3d Regular Member • Posts: 365
Re: D90 vs. Canon 500D Which one?

Stanislav Stoklas wrote:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/ (appareil1) 294%7C0 (appareil2) 267%7C0 (onglet) 0 (brand) Nikon (brand2) Canon
--

Whether this scale is perfectly valid or not can be argued by the scientifically minded here, just as the finer points of Nikon vs Canon have been argued/discussed. In any case, this scale offers a frame of reference for comparison. Compare the D90 to the 50D... yada, yada, yada. However, compare any of the DSLR's to the "good" point and shoots included on the list and you soon see that no matter which of the two you recommend, if your friend is coming from point and shoot, he'll be impressed by his new DSLR, whatever he gets.

Go a step further and let him choose for himself later by telling him to get a re-certified D40x paired with a Sigma 18-125 OS or some similar lens for about $575 US total and then spend the difference on a real video camera. Later after learning what's up with it all, he can decide what to do for himself??

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Steven Veteran Member • Posts: 4,421
Re: D90=photos 500D=video

ArtZAngel wrote:

Disclaimer: I am a Nikon "fanboy" after having spent the last 7 years
shooting Canon! Canon reserves their better AF and metering for their
top two bodies ONLY.

I shoot both brands and disagree. I would say 40D and up are very good including the XSi.

Whereas with Nikon you essentially get it with

the D300 and up.

I agree. The D300 and up is awesome.

The D90 still has more accurate metering (which

leads to far better flash exposure coverage) and a better AF system
than any Canon under $3500.

Disagree here too. My 50D metering is spot on. The D90 and D300 takes a little more work. Matrix metering can be tricky at times. I used center weight more on Nikon. Flash exposure I never had a problem with either. D90s autofocus is very good but not better by any means.

It's funny how I always bring that up and

nobody from Canon tries to counter it because they can't! It's all
there is B&W! The Canon AF system may focus faster (by faster I am
talking milliseconds) but the Nikon AF actually focuses correctly! I
would rather have a millisecond slower and in focus than a
millisecond faster and out of focus. In other words, the D90 trumps a
50D and in terms of a still camera, and shouldn't even be compared to
a 500D.

This is by far a Fanboy rant and is just not true. I guess nobody replies to your answers because they are so child like.

I will grant you that both take amazing pictures- but if one

is in focus more often, or has more consistent exposure- which would
you want? That said, it is very likely I will pick up a 500D because
of it's video capabilities... we do shoot video and 720 @ 30 fps for
up to 4-minutes with great lenses is amazing (so long as it really
works and does it require a "cool down" period).

So, if you want an OK camera with potentially amazing video, get a
500D. If you want a great camera with OK video, get a D90.

D90 is a nice camera but so far looks like the 500D is right there with better video, mirror lockup and can meter with manual lenses. Take it for what its worth. Both are very good cameras for the price.

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rhlpetrus Forum Pro • Posts: 25,859
Re: It's not about dynamic range

Dan wrote:

rhlpetrus wrote:

The issue between 12 x 14 bits is related to RAW DR and ADC path.

You're not saying that 14 bit has greater dynamic range are you?

DR is a sensor property at first, related to signal to noise ratio (SNR). You likely know about that, that's why you asked.

12 bits or 14 bits is the choice for digitization at the analog to digital converter (ADC) stage an later path (people think the sensor is a digital instrument for gathering light, no, it's analogic, current proportional to light gathered).

But the choice is related in the sense that SNR is given in DBs, each 6 DBs means twice the luminosity. Most sensors are engneered between 72 and 84 DBs of SNR, which correspond to about 12 to 14 stops of ligyht from noise floor to saturation.

Since first few bits have about no info, 12 bits is mostly enough to spread the signal evenly, but 13 or 14 may bring some extra info. There's still the issue of the post ADC conversion curve, which will say if midrange is more or less spreaded (with less or more tonal contrast).

For example, for the D90, the jpeg output shows about 3-4 stops from midtone to HL clipping and about 5 stops from midtone to almost black (check the tonal curves tested here at DPR).

So, answering your question: if sensor is not able to provide SNR higher than 72DB, it doesn't help to use more than 12 bits, one is just splitting signal into more steps, without any extra tonal info. But if sensor is campable of higher SNR, then it's true that the use of more bits in conversion will help to preserve that property.

I hoope this clarifies my short assertion.

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