GH1 is going to be Affordable!

Started Mar 4, 2009 | Discussions
John Carson Veteran Member • Posts: 4,253
Re: GH1 is going to be Affordable!

shimage wrote:

$700 is the MSRP of the Nikkor. Street price varies—sometimes,
over $700—but the MSRP has always been $700.

Amazon gives $900 as the list price:

http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-18-200mm-3-5-5-6-ED-IF-Zoom-Nikkor/dp/B000BY52NU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1236213960&sr=1-1

Aside from the
fact that I thought it should be cheaper and easier to
design/manufacture lenses without the mirror in the way, build
quality does not look up to par for a $900 lens. Of course, I have no
real reason for saying that, having only seen pictures of the lens.

This lens is optimised for video (super-fast contrast detect focussing, silent motor etc.). I think you should expect to pay something for that.

-- hide signature --

john carson

 John Carson's gear list:John Carson's gear list
Fujifilm X-E2 Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS
dmanthree
dmanthree Veteran Member • Posts: 7,754
Hope so.

I have a 5D II, but sometimes I just want to travel light, and no P&S has ever interested me. I've tried a few, and they all stink. The GH1 looks killer.
Sign me up...
--
-------------------------------------------------
'Hit Refresh if pix do not appear. Flaky ISP at work.'

linuxworks Forum Pro • Posts: 18,937
Re: I'm not a Canon fan, Liza!

LizaWitz wrote:

linuxworks wrote:

in my experience, the
only way to edit that is to expand it (like going mp3 to wav) then
edit, then recompress again.

I edit MP4 all the time, directly.

what do you use? I'd like to see for myself that its truly an 'in place' editor.

quite often a UI will make it seem like its not doing a conversion. you need to know if the engine is really doing in-place edits (and fixups at beginning and ending of i-frames) or if its simply up/down converting.

-- hide signature --
OP LizaWitz Regular Member • Posts: 461
Re: No, it really is 1080/24p. No interlace artifacts.

I can't help you if you're on windows, as I'm on a Mac. If you're on a Mac, here's the process for working with the video:

1. Take the card out of the camera, attach it to the mac (usually using a USB adapter)
2. Open iMovie
3. iMovie says "Camera detected, import video?" and you say yes.
4. iMovie imports the video and stores it on your hard drive.
5. You edit the footage in imovie.

That's the easiest, most straightforward method. My workflow will be like this:

2. Open MPEG Streamclip
3. Select "Extract Video from MTS file"
4. Save video as MPEg4
5. Edit in iMovie.

I want to do the 3:2 pulldown and keep the video in H.264 format. The first method where iMovie imports it, it decompresses the video into a larger but easier to workwith format. Either method works.

I imagine the steps are similar if you're on a PC, only you would use different software.

curtmill22 wrote:
Whoa, LizaWitz, you and RRJackson are getting too far out in front of
me for me to understand what all the numbers you are talking about
mean. I have been having a fair amount of fun shooting little short
videos using my various compacts and point and shoot cameras. I
stopped carrying the dedicated video camera (a little Canon ZR100)
because of how much bother it was to download and capture. But the
little avi's and mov files were quick and easy. So I would really be
interested in a hybrid video/still camera. AND yet it looks like the
format being used might be almost impossible to work with in anything
other than the limited way Panny has arranged for the video to be
shown. I did a search at papajohn.org (movie maker) which led to
vimeo which led to a guy (forget the name) saying he was having no
luck at all in working in 3rd party software for video editing with
what seemed like similar file formats at 720 (whatever that is). Care
to fill the rest of us in on what you are talking about. I want
to play but might wait for the dust to settle. Curt on Cape Cod

LizaWitz wrote:

RRJackson wrote:

Actually, it's kind of a mixed bag, IMO. You can only use the motion
jpeg capture at 720p.

You can capture 720/60p using AVCHD, or 720/30p using MJPEG.

The 1080p24 setting is in reference to internal
processing, but the camera has to store it in AVCHD at 1080i, so it's
interlaced capture. Now, I can't stand interlacing artifacts, so to
me this is a 720p60 camera.

You're mistaken. The 1080/24p is really 1080/24p. Its just stored
in a 60i stream, which means you do a lossless pulldown before
editing. You get real 1080/24p, with NO interlace artifacts. Its
stored in the 60i stream to give you live HDMI out while capturing
(without having to put two codecs in there doubling the workload of
encoding to both formats.) It does this by splitting the
progressive frames into fields and then duping one of them to fit the
60i timing-- but the images are captured all at once, not interlaced,
and so when they are recomposited, you have no artifacts.

OP LizaWitz Regular Member • Posts: 461
Re: GH1 is going to be Affordable!

Amazing that there is so much excitement about the Canon 5D which is much less capable in a number of ways yet costs 3 times the price.

linuxworks wrote:

DjarumBlack wrote:

1200-1400? Thats steep. That is what I think killed some of pannys
other dslr offerings.

yup. VERY steep.

its not about adding up the cost of the items, its STILL
sticker-shock in a down economy.

pany will sell more at firesale prices at the model's END than all
the other months combined (my guess). just like l1, it gained its
real following after the EOL firesale pricing.

pany always over-prices its higher end toys. those that have spare
cash on hand and the desire to be an early adopter will jump in but I
suspect at the 'over $1k level' this will not fly off the shelves...

yes, people want video and stills with 1 cam but I don't agree they
are willing to foot THIS kind of pricetag to get it.

OP LizaWitz Regular Member • Posts: 461
Re: GH1 is going to be Affordable!

Mikedigi wrote:

But for people who just want a stills camera, will the G1 be
upgraded, or a G1 launched with no video at all, at correspondingly
lower prices?

The G1 is out on the market now, and has been for many months. Its got good pricing, about $650 with the kit lens. Were you not aware of this?

There's no upgrading that the G1 needs. The difference between the two is video.

I wonder what percentage of potential m4/3 buyers want to pay a lot
more to get high quality video, or any video at all? On my FZ8, I
have never even switched the video on.

It doesn't matter the percentage- you act as if there can only be one camera. Those who don't value video, like yourself, can get the G1. Its essentially the same camera- only you don't have to pay for that feature that you don't value.

Everyone wins, why all the complaining?

linuxworks Forum Pro • Posts: 18,937
Re: GH1 is going to be Affordable!

LizaWitz wrote:

Amazing that there is so much excitement about the Canon 5D which is
much less capable in a number of ways yet costs 3 times the price.

canon people go nuts over canons. what does that have to do with the price of butter in norway?

I can see you are totally sold on this model, but you're coming of as a brand defender. do you work for pany or have an agenda??

-- hide signature --
Dayd3 Senior Member • Posts: 1,034
Re: GH1 is going to be Affordable!

LizaWitz wrote:

Everyone wins, why all the complaining?

Because many of us here don't value new m4/3 system (camera + lenses) by video capabilities but by photo capabilities. If for example Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. offer theiir systems (camera + lenses) by 1/2 price and at same time photo quality are same or even better than it's natural that people are complaining. This is not video forum and you can't expect that people here value new cameras by comparing them to camcorders.

I don't know what's your photographing experience cause you always speak about video. Altough some things are simmilar with photo and video still those two are two different worlds.

 Dayd3's gear list:Dayd3's gear list
Olympus E-PL7 Sigma 19mm F2.8 DN | A Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12mm 1:2 Sigma 60mm F2.8 DN Art Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 17mm F1.8
DjarumBlack Senior Member • Posts: 1,444
Re: Found a cheaper lens? Buy it!

Dayd3 wrote:

LizaWitz wrote:

Dayd3 wrote:

I don't understand those who say - "buy G1 if you don't need video".
It's not problem with camera bodies prices but with new lenses
prices. Both new lenses are by far too expensive for most of us who
just needs good and smaller photocamera and not videocamera.

Then buy a Leica M lens, they are rangefinder sized and great
quality. Oh wait, they're expensive too? Hmmm... I wonder why?

IMO Panny is comparable to Oly and Zuiko and not to Leica. That's why
I don't expect Leica prices here.

If you want a cheap lens the canon FD series are high quality and
inexpensive since they are "obsolete". You can buy them for this
camera with an adapter. They're just not small and light.

Good, inexpensive and small lenses are main factors which can
attract me to m4/3 standard, not small camera with extraordinary
costly small lenses and ability to manualy focus dSLR lenses. For big
dSLR lenses I don't need small camera body. If lens weights 1kg or
even more what's the advantage of small and light camera body?

Exactly my point, and probably articulated better.

I have no complaints over the price of the camera. It just appears to me that they are leaving the G1 behind when it comes to a wide angle to zoom lens. If panny decides to make a lens specifically for the G1 that doesnt have all the focusing stuff for the video, that would, IMHO, make it right.

I took a look at some of the oly lenses at b and h to see if that would be an alternative for me with the G1. Even the price on those, albiet they are great lenses, is more than I think folks, or myself, are willing to pay movin from a point and shoot or ultra zoom to an slr like camera. Considering Sigma makes some good lenses for the aps-c format at half the price, and they have more glass!

Dj

DjarumBlack Senior Member • Posts: 1,444
Re: GH1 is going to be Affordable!

LizaWitz wrote:

Mikedigi wrote:

But for people who just want a stills camera, will the G1 be
upgraded, or a G1 launched with no video at all, at correspondingly
lower prices?

The G1 is out on the market now, and has been for many months. Its
got good pricing, about $650 with the kit lens. Were you not aware
of this?

There's no upgrading that the G1 needs. The difference between the
two is video.

I wonder what percentage of potential m4/3 buyers want to pay a lot
more to get high quality video, or any video at all? On my FZ8, I
have never even switched the video on.

It doesn't matter the percentage- you act as if there can only be one
camera. Those who don't value video, like yourself, can get the G1.
Its essentially the same camera- only you don't have to pay for that
feature that you don't value.

Everyone wins, why all the complaining?

I think it has been obvious and articulated well: No reasonable priced single lens replacement for the fz60 or the like for the G1. If, today, panasonic came out with a 14-140mm lens starting at f3.5(Im sure some want faster, but this is good enough for me) around 500-600 dollars, I myself would get online and drop the dough for the camera with the kit lens and then get the zoom lens.

I have been waiting for 4 years to replace my FZ3 because I wanted the right camera, and the G1 is the right camera without the right lens(at least for me at the moment)

Dj

antoineb Veteran Member • Posts: 6,650
It's not how much things SHOULD cost, it's what the market will bear

Of course someone could argue, "oh for a 10x zoom shouldn't we be looking at 500 dollars?" (remember this is a fairly slow zoom). Well maybe, it will depend on quality. A Sigma 18-200 stabilised goes for around 400 dollars, but a Tamron 18-200 for 250, while the Nikon is nearly 600.

Now factor in a kit discount, remember that the G1's price includes a not so bad kit lens. Ok maybe you'd get to 1200 dollars in a good economy.

But this is not a good economy. And also, surely Panasonic, while not discounting the brand especially on such nice new products, also want to see the m43 standard gain share, not just sit on shelves due to the high price?

I look at the D90 and it can be found w 18-200 kit for 1200 dollars or even a bit less. It's video is less capable than the specs of the GH1 but it's not horrible. And its photo quality will be a good bit better. And that's from the photo brand with probably the biggest pricing power out there today.

So yeah, ok, I'll give you 1'100 dollars at most. But I think the GH1 will sell better if the kit stabilises around 1'000 dollars.

Which, again, remains far from "cheap" or "affordable", especially in the current economic times.

 antoineb's gear list:antoineb's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ18 Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ8 Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS7 Olympus TG-610 Nikon D7000 +5 more
EDirkx Senior Member • Posts: 1,677
What is affordable about that?

Both qualitywise and sizewise it's a camera in-between a DSLR and a superzoom. So it should be priced accordingly. A pricetag about half of what you are saying would be reasonable. And you can ad € 150, because it's new technology and than we are talking about a reasonable affordable camera.

I bought the 450D Canon-kit a few months ago for € 1000,00. No way this GH1 should me more expensive, unless the picture output is way, way, way better then the G1, because that was basically just not impressive for the money. It's a good cam, and amazingly smart design, but the pricetag is wasy, way off.

Greetings,
Erwin
--
Still learning.....

Sony H2
Canon 450D 18-55 IS, 55-250 IS, 50mm 1.8

Some of my pictures here:
http://www.pbase.com/ed197907/

stefaan Senior Member • Posts: 1,136
Re: What is affordable about that?

I think this price is justified because they are first to market with this all-in-one design.
This is not a photocamera, it is much more than that.

If computers become much more powerfull (HD editing), software easier and price drops most people will prefer such a device.
No-one will accept a camera that can only take stills (consumers I mean).

That is why I would say the opposite ... the other camera's are overpriced because they lack important must-have (future oriented) features.

If people document events they will shoot 1080p HD (or better) video, pick some stills out of the (4MP video later on) video clips and make still photos (digital photo frame etc.) from those.
Why could canon ask so much for the first consumer oriented DSLR ?
It offered things the competition couldn't do (for that price) back then.

Same with Panasonic now. Those who think they need this GH1 don't mind the cost at all. Those less interested in video could as well buy whatever other DSLR or of course the G1.

DjarumBlack Senior Member • Posts: 1,444
Re: What is affordable about that?

stefaan wrote:

I think this price is justified because they are first to market with
this all-in-one design.
This is not a photocamera, it is much more than that.
If computers become much more powerfull (HD editing), software easier
and price drops most people will prefer such a device.
No-one will accept a camera that can only take stills (consumers I
mean).
That is why I would say the opposite ... the other camera's are
overpriced because they lack important must-have (future oriented)
features.
If people document events they will shoot 1080p HD (or better) video,
pick some stills out of the (4MP video later on) video clips and make
still photos (digital photo frame etc.) from those.
Why could canon ask so much for the first consumer oriented DSLR ?
It offered things the competition couldn't do (for that price) back
then.
Same with Panasonic now. Those who think they need this GH1 don't
mind the cost at all. Those less interested in video could as well
buy whatever other DSLR or of course the G1.
--

This is a contradiction for panasonic then. Price does reflect the "newness" of any technology, but it also reflects the willingness for folks to get into any hobby. Panasonic can't say the G1 system is for those moving up and in the same breath have it overpriced for the market demographic they are targeting. The potential buyers are huge for this system, but not at the price. For me, again, I could care less about video. But I do want a small compact zoom lens that is affordable. There is a huge market of folks who are ready to get rid of their superzooms. Not at that price, I'm afraid.

Rockchan Contributing Member • Posts: 868
It is combination, not in between

It is not " in-between a DSLR and a superzoom", it "combines a DSLR and a superzoom". It can use interchangeable lens as a DSLR (superzoom cannot do it), while it can also take HD video as a superzoom (most DSLR cannot take video).

Your 450D cannot take HD video, that is why it is cheaper (as it incapable to do something that GH1 can do).

If you don't need HD video, then buy a G1. Nobody force you to ignore G1.

EDirkx wrote:

Both qualitywise and sizewise it's a camera in-between a DSLR and a
superzoom. So it should be priced accordingly. A pricetag about half
of what you are saying would be reasonable. And you can ad € 150,
because it's new technology and than we are talking about a
reasonable affordable camera.

I bought the 450D Canon-kit a few months ago for € 1000,00. No way
this GH1 should me more expensive, unless the picture output is way,
way, way better then the G1, because that was basically just not
impressive for the money. It's a good cam, and amazingly smart
design, but the pricetag is wasy, way off.

Greetings,
Erwin
--
Still learning.....

Sony H2
Canon 450D 18-55 IS, 55-250 IS, 50mm 1.8

Some of my pictures here:
http://www.pbase.com/ed197907/

Rockchan Contributing Member • Posts: 868
Re: What is affordable about that?

Then buy a G1. It is cheaper than GH1.

DjarumBlack wrote:

stefaan wrote:

I think this price is justified because they are first to market with
this all-in-one design.
This is not a photocamera, it is much more than that.
If computers become much more powerfull (HD editing), software easier
and price drops most people will prefer such a device.
No-one will accept a camera that can only take stills (consumers I
mean).
That is why I would say the opposite ... the other camera's are
overpriced because they lack important must-have (future oriented)
features.
If people document events they will shoot 1080p HD (or better) video,
pick some stills out of the (4MP video later on) video clips and make
still photos (digital photo frame etc.) from those.
Why could canon ask so much for the first consumer oriented DSLR ?
It offered things the competition couldn't do (for that price) back
then.
Same with Panasonic now. Those who think they need this GH1 don't
mind the cost at all. Those less interested in video could as well
buy whatever other DSLR or of course the G1.
--

This is a contradiction for panasonic then. Price does reflect the
"newness" of any technology, but it also reflects the willingness for
folks to get into any hobby. Panasonic can't say the G1 system is for
those moving up and in the same breath have it overpriced for the
market demographic they are targeting. The potential buyers are huge
for this system, but not at the price. For me, again, I could care
less about video. But I do want a small compact zoom lens that is
affordable. There is a huge market of folks who are ready to get rid
of their superzooms. Not at that price, I'm afraid.

LarryPhoto Senior Member • Posts: 2,612
Nikon D90

Whats the going price for a D90 with no lens?

antoineb wrote:

I look at the D90 and it can be found w 18-200 kit for 1200 dollars
or even a bit less. It's video is less capable than the specs of the
GH1 but it's not horrible. And its photo quality will be a good bit
better. And that's from the photo brand with probably the biggest
pricing power out there today.

So yeah, ok, I'll give you 1'100 dollars at most. But I think the
GH1 will sell better if the kit stabilises around 1'000 dollars.

Which, again, remains far from "cheap" or "affordable", especially in
the current economic times.

DjarumBlack Senior Member • Posts: 1,444
Re: What is affordable about that?

Rockchan wrote:
Then buy a G1. It is cheaper than GH1.

DjarumBlack wrote:

stefaan wrote:

I think this price is justified because they are first to market with
this all-in-one design.
This is not a photocamera, it is much more than that.
If computers become much more powerfull (HD editing), software easier
and price drops most people will prefer such a device.
No-one will accept a camera that can only take stills (consumers I
mean).
That is why I would say the opposite ... the other camera's are
overpriced because they lack important must-have (future oriented)
features.
If people document events they will shoot 1080p HD (or better) video,
pick some stills out of the (4MP video later on) video clips and make
still photos (digital photo frame etc.) from those.
Why could canon ask so much for the first consumer oriented DSLR ?
It offered things the competition couldn't do (for that price) back
then.
Same with Panasonic now. Those who think they need this GH1 don't
mind the cost at all. Those less interested in video could as well
buy whatever other DSLR or of course the G1.
--

This is a contradiction for panasonic then. Price does reflect the
"newness" of any technology, but it also reflects the willingness for
folks to get into any hobby. Panasonic can't say the G1 system is for
those moving up and in the same breath have it overpriced for the
market demographic they are targeting. The potential buyers are huge
for this system, but not at the price. For me, again, I could care
less about video. But I do want a small compact zoom lens that is
affordable. There is a huge market of folks who are ready to get rid
of their superzooms. Not at that price, I'm afraid.

Thats not the problem. The price of the 14-140 lens is. That is what I was replying too.

Dj

EDirkx Senior Member • Posts: 1,677
Re: It is combination, not in between

Rockchan wrote:

It is not " in-between a DSLR and a superzoom", it "combines a DSLR
and a superzoom". It can use interchangeable lens as a DSLR
(superzoom cannot do it), while it can also take HD video as a
superzoom (most DSLR cannot take video).

It would be a combination if it could do all the things the same as a DSLR and a superzoom. It can't, so it's in between, sharing some features. .

Your 450D cannot take HD video, that is why it is cheaper (as it
incapable to do something that GH1 can do).

If you don't need HD video, then buy a G1. Nobody force you to
ignore G1.

If I recall correctly, the G1 with comparable kit is more expensive than most entrylevel DSLR's.

EDirkx wrote:

Both qualitywise and sizewise it's a camera in-between a DSLR and a
superzoom. So it should be priced accordingly. A pricetag about half
of what you are saying would be reasonable. And you can ad € 150,
because it's new technology and than we are talking about a
reasonable affordable camera.

I bought the 450D Canon-kit a few months ago for € 1000,00. No way
this GH1 should me more expensive, unless the picture output is way,
way, way better then the G1, because that was basically just not
impressive for the money. It's a good cam, and amazingly smart
design, but the pricetag is wasy, way off.

Greetings,
Erwin
--
Still learning.....

Sony H2
Canon 450D 18-55 IS, 55-250 IS, 50mm 1.8

Some of my pictures here:
http://www.pbase.com/ed197907/

-- hide signature --

Still learning.....

Sony H2
Canon 450D 18-55 IS, 55-250 IS, 50mm 1.8

Some of my pictures here:
http://www.pbase.com/ed197907/

Dayd3 Senior Member • Posts: 1,034
Re: What is affordable about that?

stefaan wrote:

No-one will accept a camera that can only take stills (consumers I
mean).

How is than that so many entry level dSLRs are selling? If by "consumers" you mean those who are shooting with compacts, well do you think 1500 euros will not be too much for them? They can buy compacts with good enough video for just a fraction of that price.

GH1 with kit lens is for now IMO good system for those who wants to shoot good videos and at the same time good photos (not consumers for sure cause this "joy" costs 1500 euros).

 Dayd3's gear list:Dayd3's gear list
Olympus E-PL7 Sigma 19mm F2.8 DN | A Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12mm 1:2 Sigma 60mm F2.8 DN Art Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 17mm F1.8
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