AVCHD 720p/60 a problem?

Started Feb 18, 2009 | Discussions
gweedo Regular Member • Posts: 350
Re: It s not 60 fps !!

hazydave wrote:

IT would cost nothing for them to write out standard MP4 files, and
save everyone a lot of grief.

No, actually, that would cause confusion among consumers, just as the
few MP4 camcorders out today do precisely that. Check out consumery
foums like Yahoo Answers... there is always some poor schmuck who
can't get their MP4 videos to play.

I don't think so. Consumers are familiar with .MP4 files, but give them .MTS and they don't know what to do. You double click on an .MP4 file and quicktime player or your local video player launches and plays it. AVCHD Files can't just be played within the OS, they have to be handled by specialized software.

There's no end of confusion complaints and problems with AVCHD.

Or, perhaps, they've seen the problems others have run into releasing
camcorders to consumers that aren't quite so consumer friendly.

Sorry, I have one of those camcorders and the idea that AVCHD is more "consumer friendly" is pretty absurd. You just copy the data off of the SD card onto your machine. You click on it to watch it, or you copy it into your footage folder and then you can edit it.

AVCHD has to be handled by an NLE, you can't preview it in a video player, and you 're working with a "standard" that is specific to only one use case. While MP4 is a common file format that is used in lots of different situations.

The advantage of AVCHD is that it's a fixed standard: you know the
CODECs, audio and video, and you're done... if your NLE takes this
in, and there are no bug (which has been a problem), you get the
video. MP4 is a file wrapper format, like AVI, or as you know, almost
exacly like Quicktime. There's no guarantee that any of the CODECs in
an MP4 file are necessarily resident on your PC, and you can pretty
much bet they're not resident on your Blu-Ray player.

Blue ray is irrelevant, the format is already dying, but you're quite wrong even there. Blueray is capable of playing back H.264, of course its in Sony's proprietary Memory Stick for video called AVCHD.

H.264 is the standard MPEG4 video codec. I'm not aware of any operating system (That's had a major release in the last 5 years) that doesn't support it. H.264 and AAC in MPEG4 is a perfectly fine standard. (Ironically, the AC3 that many AVCHD cameras put in the stream is a codec that is not part of the MPEG4 standard and not found on many systems.)

I agree that AVCHD is too limiting for professional cameras.. not
that many pro cameras are embracing it. But we ARE talking about a
pocket camera for consumers here, eh?

Yes, and it should shoot H.264 with AAC in an MP4 file format. That is the best for consumers. IF "AVCHD" had specified that, then great.

but AVCHD was hampered by the mandate that it work for storing on DVDs, and while technology has moved on, we're still hampered by AVCHD.

Gary Fin New Member • Posts: 21
60p on 30p ccd output is not 2x file size.

The whole thing about AVCHD is the C is for interframe compression. If you are recording 30 frames per second on CCD output, then duplicating each frame to meet the 60p standard doesn't necessary require 2x file sizes.

When two consecutive frames are identifical, any compression mechanism should be able to compress the size to half without loss of quality.

scrambler2 Contributing Member • Posts: 697
Re: Depends on your computer....

It is not just Cpu but graphics card. I have a PC with an early Core2 duo and an Nvidia 7900gtx, and it does 1080p 60fps without any problems

tomoa New Member • Posts: 1
Re: AVCHD 720p/60 a problem?

Are You sure that it records 720P60? I found in technical data: CCD output is 30p. Do You understand it?

relate22 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,585
Re: AVCHD does not need conversion to edit.

I have a TZ7 and just drop the videos into Cyberlink's PowerDirector 8 ultra and edit away. I can then render them to virtually any format I want or leave them the same.
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Shrapnel Contributing Member • Posts: 787
Re: AVCHD 720p/60 a problem?

Check the age of the posting you've replied to - it was a year ago

I think it's well understood now that AVCHD Lite at '60' fps is actually 30 fps but marked for playback at 60 by displaying each frame twice - without wasting file space by duplicating any frames in the data.
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Pepster returns Junior Member • Posts: 47
The TZ7 catures 30fps (US) and 25 fps (EU, JPN, AU)

The TZ7 wrongly reports double the frame rate in the header.

The actual frame rate is 30fps (US) and 25 fps (EU, JPN, AU) progressive.

I have tested this.

Shrapnel Contributing Member • Posts: 787
Re: The TZ7 catures 30fps (US) and 25 fps (EU, JPN, AU)

The TZ7 wrongly reports double the frame rate in the header.
The actual frame rate is 30fps (US) and 25 fps (EU, JPN, AU) progressive.

29.97 rather than 30.0 to be precise

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ns66 Regular Member • Posts: 313
Re: The TZ7 catures 30fps (US) and 25 fps (EU, JPN, AU)

has anyone tested the difference between avchd and mov files this camera will generate?

any quality and file size difference?

reading this thread it seems the core video data (H.264) is the same (be it using avchd format or mov), just the packaging is different?

scrambler2 Contributing Member • Posts: 697
Re: The TZ7 catures 30fps (US) and 25 fps (EU, JPN, AU)
hazydave Junior Member • Posts: 34
Re: Go read the AVCHD specs

gweedo wrote:

hazydave wrote:

But the real point is that this is for consumers. The AVCHD format is
the annointed successor to DV, HDV, and all of the various and
slightly incompatible MP4 formats used on some of the existing third
tier camcorders (Sanyo for one).

Actually, you have it backwards. AVCHD uses H.264 video and it makes it incompatible by puting it in an MPEG2 stream.

Hardly. H.264 itself is a stand-alone format. You can stream it raw, put it any file or stream structure you care to. It's fairly useless on its own.

MPEG4 is a standard. There are not variations of it. The standard supports video in a variety of formats and bitrates. But the standard means any editor that conforms to the standard can playback the video.

MPEG-4 is a standard, but there are dozens of variations of it. Take AVC: CBP, BP, MP, HiP, Hi10P, Xp, PHiP, Hi422P, Hi444P; level 1, 1b, 1.1... 2, 2.1... 3... 4... 5... they're changing all the time. And that's just one element in pure MPEG-4.

That's because it was never actually intended to be a stand-alone standard. And grab anything you think is an MPEG-4 player. Does it actually handle part 16 (AFX)? Part 21 (MPEG-J Graphics)? Part 24 (3D graphics compression)? And MPEG-4 is virtually infinite, since new formats can always be added; MPEG-4 was five years old before AVC was added to it.

With an MPEG4 file you can just play it back in quicktime, realplayer or windows wmv player-- as all three of them support the standard.

No, they don't. They support some of the things that can be found in an MPEG-4 wrapper. Quicktime in particular, since MPEG-4 Part 14, the MPEG-4 file format, was directly derived from Quicktime. (oh, by the way, Windows doesn't ship with a WMV player, they ship with Windows Media Player. And unless you're running Windows 7, Windows doesn't come with the MP4 splitter and H.264 CODEC you need to play MP4 files in WMP).

AVCHD is an actual standard, far more complete and limited (a very important part of a consumer standard) than MPEG-4. The actual contents are often the same. But not always.

Here's the problem. MPEG-4 isn't technically limited in a number of important ways. The AVCHD 1.0 format limits AVC streams to 18Mb/s for DVD, 24Mb/s elsewhere. The Blu-ray standard limits AVC streams to 40Mb/s (78Mb/s for Profile 5.0 3D streams). And the resolutions are capped at 1920x1080, at 60i or 24p. But a legal MPEG-4 stream could contain 4096x2048/30p, 4:4:4, at 960Mb/s. Are you certain Quicktime or Realplayer will play this? Will your NLE actually edit this?

That's why consumer standard aren't built on raw Motion Pictures Experts Group specs, but a real, well defined standard. No reason you HAVE to stick to this for all things.

AVCHD you have to find a special program to play it back natively.

Nope... exactly the same kind of requirements to play it back as for MPEG-4... you need a compliant program. Quicktime only supports MPEG-4 because it's practically Quicktime, and at that, only the elements of MPEG-4 that are echoed in Quicktime. It doesn't play much else. AVCHD drops just dandy into Windows Media Player, VLC,

Splash, pretty much any modern video player (didn't actually know Real Networks were still around.. I don't use their stuff).

Same way with editors. MPEG4 is a standard.

AVCHD is far better supported by video editors than MPEG-4. They are both standards, but MPEG-4 is an open standard that changes every year. AVCHD is like Blu-ray or DVD --- it's a fixed standard, which may add new features in a N.0 revision every 3-5 years.

It offers nothing over MPEG4 on random access media, and all camcorders are going to random access media.

Doesn't matter. The purpose of a camcorder is recording, which is a streaming operation. There is absolutely no advantage to a random access optimized format when you're recording streams. And a big advantage... you don't have to "close" a streaming format like MPEG-2 TS. Camera battery dies or whatever, you have a perfectly good file. When that happens on an MPEG-4 file format camera, you have an incomplete file. Some readers won't care, some will crash (trust me, my old Sanyo Xacti FH1 -- my backpacking camcorder -- is an MPEG-4 camcorder, and file errors were enough of a problem, I generally remuxed everything in YAMB before trying to edit it).

This is also why MPEG4 is becoming more popular with Canon choosing it for the 5D, JVC choosing it for their professional camcorders, etc.

Incorrect. The 5D, like my 60D, records IP-only AVC in a Quicktime file, at 44Mb/s. Apple has their own standards for AVC, which have absolutely nothing to do with MPEG-4.

JVC uses MPEG-2 on all of their professional camcorders as their primary format, usually at 35Mb/s or faster, using a Quicktime file wrapper. Some of the new ones offer AVC recording, based on Sony's XD-CAM EX standard. Again, a closed and fully fleshed out standard (which permits either MPEG-4 or the superior MXF file wrappers). Not "raw" MPEG-4.

Their prosumer and consumer models, like the GY-HMZ1U, record in AVCHD format.

Do you realize that AVC and AVCHD are two very different things?

I have worked in digital video well since before MPEG-1 (I was an engineer on most of the high-end Amiga computers, which pretty much defined the dawn of digital video). I designed DVB and DVD compliant set top boxes back in the 90s. I'm sure I've forgotten more about it than you'll ever know.

I don't think you understand the point of a standard, much less what a standard actually is. MPEG-4 is a standard for people making other standards. It's not supposed to be consumer-facing standard.

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