Strange flare with 5dII. Please check.

Started Feb 12, 2009 | Discussions
OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: Extrem Easy to fix. Use a Lens hood.

Obviously you have not paid too much attention to the thread.

  • All my shots are with hoods on

  • What is a hood going to do on a zoom, lets say 24-105 mm ???

  • How is the hood going to help Tilt/Shift lenses ?

  • A hood is not a well defined crop.

Would be nice to not point the finger so easily.
Cheers
George

Bastian09 wrote:

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OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: Strange flare with 5dII. Please check.

Hi !

rrcphoto wrote:

elgeorgio wrote:

Hi Ppl !

I recently got my 5DmkII and been having good fun with it.

I was playing about and got the shot bellow. Notice the strange flare
at the bottom ?
I tried with EF24-105l at 3 different focal lengths, with EF50/1.4,
EF70-300, Zeis Planar T* 50 and all created the same problem.

part of this bugs me .. been pondering this one for a while now -
especially considering .. we've never seen this before even on a 5D
or before your test on a 5DII in real life scenarios.

Since I was not lucky enough to own a 5Dmk1 I could not tell.

But this one hit me the first week of owning the MkII. With all the very skilled pros here it is really strange no one had noticed before.
And it was a normal shot that set off the alarm for me.

all n number of those lenses will have a different angle from the
point of light exiting the rear element to displaying the image
circle on the sensor plane.

for this reflection off the submirror to occur - the light would have
to be bouncing for one .. against the back of the mirror - but that
would tend to be too large of an image circle. and the angle of
exiting the lens and projecting into the sensor, would change with
different lenses.

they are all not going to have the same angle - therefore how are all
of them displaying this issue? some of them would bounce at a
different angle and show the flare near center .. or moved in .. or
moved out .. all depending on the angle in which it was hitting the
reflective part.

The angle of light exiting the mirror should have (more or less) the same angle. It is required to cover the area of the sensor and a bit more ( BTW this is the difference between EF and EF-S lenses).

Actually the better the lens the bigger image circle (to compensate for vignetting).

also - does this also occur stopped down - which would change the angle?

if it happens stopped down or wide open, I'd say we're looking at an
effect, but incorrectly deducing the cause.

The aperture value changes how much the light is focused at the point of impact with the mirror back. This only affects how wide the flare is going to be on the sensor (Assuming the off-scene is a point of light).

George

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xLnT Regular Member • Posts: 164
No, you're wrong

We all use Hood. So we can pretty much establish that this is a flaw in 5d mk1 and mk2.
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KAllen Veteran Member • Posts: 3,880
Re: Strange flare with 5dII. Please check.

elgeorgio wrote:

Hi Ppl !

I recently got my 5DmkII and been having good fun with it.

I was playing about and got the shot bellow. Notice the strange flare
at the bottom ?
I tried with EF24-105l at 3 different focal lengths, with EF50/1.4,
EF70-300, Zeis Planar T* 50 and all created the same problem.
If I shoot the same scene in portrait or upside down I see no flare.
Same problem with shooting through live view (all 3 "silent shoot"
modes)
All shots where taken with lens hoods on.
Same shot with my 40D shows no such problems.

To reproduce the problem I have to take any bright light/object on an
overall dark scene a bit bellow the viewing area. How far bellow does
not appear to be critical.

Can you please check and report back if you have the same problem ?

It is definitely not firmware related because the lights are not on
the sensor.
Lens flare I have ruled out for a number of reasons.
Mirror movement reflection is also out because of live view with same
problem.
The only remaining moving part is the curtain. How reflective is it ??

Anyway, I hope I get some replies 'cause this looks bad.

Many thanks

George

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Could you see it in the viewfinder at the time?.

It's definitely flare of some kind and because it's sharp and vertical, I think it's a reflection close to the sensor edge . I would try again on a tripod with live view and get an idea when it does or does not happen. If you can create it easily a trip back to the shop might be in order, if it's really hard work to do and will only be a one in a million chance, chalk it up to bad luck. I don't think it should happen, it might be something you have to live with on those rear occurrences though.

I've not seen it on the night video that's all over the net. No chance you changed lens and got some drops of moisture in the camera is there, like blowing on the sensor or a wipe with a swab? It might be worth a clean around the sensor in case there is some debris around the edge.

Kevin.

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KAllen Veteran Member • Posts: 3,880
Re: Strange flare with 5dII. Please check.
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Silly question I know, but you were actually outside and not shooting through glass right?

Kevin.

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Jepe Regular Member • Posts: 180
It's an old problem

I have taken cityscapes at night with my Hasselblad 503 and Carl Zeiss lenses on film and I had the same problems when bright lights were just outside the frame. Because you can't see 'em in the viewfinder, doesn't mean lenses won't pick them up. After all, the image circle of any lens is made to (just) cover the corners. On the sides, there's a lot of image circle left. So, the lens picks up the lights, and because they are near the outer edge of the image circle, where lens quality isn't at its best, they flare.

So, now we know that you have to be more careful when they are on the bottom. No big deal. Either you put the lights inside the frame, or you aim just a little higher to get them outside the image circle. In live view, it's easy to see what is happening. Another solution is to use a small black piece of cardboard as an extra hood to cut out these lights. Just brush up your skills a little bit. Or get one of those fancy square hoods with flexible bellows.

GaryJP
GaryJP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,594
It's what lens hoods are for
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xLnT Regular Member • Posts: 164
It's the mirror in camera that reflects! not the lens.

No hood can solve it. And it seems to affect image quality eveytime you have a bright source underneath the motive. Including water and snow.

Read the whole thread and you see what I mean.
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Jepe Regular Member • Posts: 180
Re: It's the mirror in camera that reflects! not the lens.

xLnT wrote:

No hood can solve it. And it seems to affect image quality eveytime
you have a bright source underneath the motive. Including water and
snow.

Read the whole thread and you see what I mean.
--
F

I did read the whole thread. And so far, there are only pictures in it with very bright, blown out lightsources just outside the frame and inside the imagecircle that seem to cause these flares. And yes, snow reflecting direct sunlight back into the lens might also cause some problems like reduced contrast. And yes, the more matte black the mirror box is, the better. Still nothing new. I do have a 5dII and when I get pictures like these, I blame myself for not paying attention to what was happening, not the camera. If I would want the picture this thread started with, without the flares but also without the lights I would have two choices: to aim a little higher and get rid of them, or to incorporate them in the picture and crop them out. No big deal. Having lightsources that bright just outside, or only just inside the frame is asking for trouble. And it has allways been that way. Nothing strange about it. Try shooting against the sun, with the sun just outside the frame.. Flares? Yes, for sure. Now take a dark night and some bright lights. Same thing, only multiplied by the number of lights.

OTOH, I know now that I have to be extra careful with lights coming from the bottom. That is valuable info. And agreed, it would be nice if Canon would take care designing the mirrorbox of the 5DIII to make it extra matte black.

DarkShift Regular Member • Posts: 254
Vertical shooting

How about shooting concerts or in a church with bright candlelights with camera in vertical position?

Streaks could affect right side of the images easily depending on position of the subject and photographer (if you cannot move much).

Even if other cameras had this, it might turn out to be a big problem in some cases.

Let see what is Canon's reaction to this problem. Maybe they will provide each buyer with piece of black felt and roll of two sided tape.

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OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
Makes me sad...

It does.

I have been very carefull (at least to my abilities) to not offend anyone and any product.

But it makes me sad when people give excuses for the gear and blaim the photographer without a second thought.

qballfl, Steven Noyes, jimcreative, Bastian09, Jepe. GaryJP, Please answer this:

The 40D is vastly improved on this issue over the 5DmkII.
Don't you want at least THE SAME performance (same as a less semi-pro model) ?

I really want to hear your answers on this...

George
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GaryJP
GaryJP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,594
Nope.

A light source does NOT have to be in the frame to cast flare.

90% of the pictures you see with flare do not even SHOW the sun or othr source that's causing it.

I shoot in TV studios with overhead lights all the time. A lens hood helps.

Stand me next to the OP and I could get a good shot.

And I'm no photographic genius.

xLnT wrote:

No hood can solve it. And it seems to affect image quality eveytime
you have a bright source underneath the motive. Including water and
snow.

Read the whole thread and you see what I mean.
--
F

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GaryJP
GaryJP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,594
User Error Alert!!! [Nt]
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GaryJP
GaryJP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,594
You Make me sad...

elgeorgio wrote:

qballfl, Steven Noyes, jimcreative, Bastian09, Jepe. GaryJP, Please
answer this:

The 40D is vastly improved on this issue over the 5DmkII.

How ignorant can you be?

The 40D is NOT improved. It's cropped. Don't you get it yet?

And, yes, I have a 40D.

Jesus frogging Christ!.

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rrcphoto Veteran Member • Posts: 6,173
Re: No, you're wrong

xLnT wrote:

We all use Hood. So we can pretty much establish that this is a flaw
in 5d mk1 and mk2.
--
F

and out of the millions of photos most likely taken out of 5D Mark I .. no ones' had it before this badly?

the mirror by angular position is too high up in the mirror box to cause edge based flare such as we're seeing here. especially under a wide variety of lenses.

rrcphoto Veteran Member • Posts: 6,173
Re: Makes me sad...

elgeorgio wrote:

It does.

I have been very carefull (at least to my abilities) to not offend
anyone and any product.
But it makes me sad when people give excuses for the gear and blaim
the photographer without a second thought.

qballfl, Steven Noyes, jimcreative, Bastian09, Jepe. GaryJP, Please
answer this:

The 40D is vastly improved on this issue over the 5DmkII.
Don't you want at least THE SAME performance (same as a less semi-pro
model) ?

actually it's immaterial.

for all we know .. there was a manufacturing fault with your 5DII .. the mirror is slightly out of alignment when it flips up, there's a coating missing from the sensor (it's happened before) or some other mydrid fault.

what you SHOULD do is take your camera back, which your vendor already said you should do so, and see if another one does it the same.

but out of the millions of 5D and 5DII shots, this shooting style isn't unique, it would have been a common problem.

OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: You Make me sad...

Garry,
I never get personal. We are all friends here, right ?

You should know that reflections are favored by a small angle of incidence. The 40D because it is cropped should suffer more.

The nope above means you do not want the same performance ?

Cheers
George

GaryJP wrote:

elgeorgio wrote:

qballfl, Steven Noyes, jimcreative, Bastian09, Jepe. GaryJP, Please
answer this:

The 40D is vastly improved on this issue over the 5DmkII.

How ignorant can you be?

The 40D is NOT improved. It's cropped. Don't you get it yet?

And, yes, I have a 40D.

Jesus frogging Christ!.

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OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: Makes me sad...

rrcphoto wrote:

elgeorgio wrote:

It does.

I have been very carefull (at least to my abilities) to not offend
anyone and any product.
But it makes me sad when people give excuses for the gear and blaim
the photographer without a second thought.

qballfl, Steven Noyes, jimcreative, Bastian09, Jepe. GaryJP, Please
answer this:

The 40D is vastly improved on this issue over the 5DmkII.
Don't you want at least THE SAME performance (same as a less semi-pro
model) ?

actually it's immaterial.

for all we know .. there was a manufacturing fault with your 5DII ..
the mirror is slightly out of alignment when it flips up, there's a
coating missing from the sensor (it's happened before) or some other
mydrid fault.

what you SHOULD do is take your camera back, which your vendor
already said you should do so, and see if another one does it the
same.

but out of the millions of 5D and 5DII shots, this shooting style
isn't unique, it would have been a common problem.

This is true. I REALLY hoped it was just my 5D because then it would be fixed. The intention of this thread was to find out exactly this.
But so far I'm not alone.
I'll wait for the response from Canon.

George

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Mike Gerstner Veteran Member • Posts: 4,209
confirmed.........with 5D

not great art & might be a little blurry due to hand holding. Never noticed this during normal shooting (interiors, portraits, product shots).

haven't gleaned what is exactly causing it, but hopefully there is a fix. Plan on doing some city scape dusk/dawn shots this spring (streetlights on)

ISO 400

Upside down shot, rotated 180, with shadows boosted a little, very faint but visible

Mike

GaryJP
GaryJP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,594
Re: You Make me sad...

elgeorgio wrote:

Garry,
I never get personal. We are all friends here, right ?

You should know that reflections are favored by a small angle of
incidence. The 40D because it is cropped should suffer more.

And you should know that because of its smaller sensor the 40D is NOT using the whole frame. In other words, there is possibly also some flare on the lens but it is cropped off.

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