Strange flare with 5dII. Please check.

Started Feb 12, 2009 | Discussions
OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
More Photos

OK, these are from last night and today.

There is no extreme conditions here no black dots hunting at 1000%.

The scene with lights in

And lights out

More pictures. These are daytime with heavy overcast

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Digital Shutterbug Veteran Member • Posts: 3,880
Re: Normal...

rrcphoto wrote:

since the mirror swings up, it wouldn't reflecting off the bottom of
the mirror since it's in the wrong spot, so it must be something near
the sensor, close to the bottom of the mirror box.

Are you sure about that? Isn't the image inverted coming out of the lens? The top of the sensor, next to the mirror in its up position, actually sees the bottom of the image.

Steve

DSPographer Senior Member • Posts: 2,464
What does the back of mirror look like?

Can you use another camera to take a photo of the underside of the mirror with it flipped up in sensor clean mode? I wonder if Canon missed coating something black in all 5DII or just your copy.

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blueuser Regular Member • Posts: 498
A quick test here...

I have a LED torch which I placed on a chair

On this picture the torch is just outside the bottom off the frame

And on this picture the torch is just outside the top off the frame

EOS 5DM2 @ ISO 1600.

I reproduced the same issue on my old 5D which I have owned in two years and never noticed that problem before.

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nesjerry New Member • Posts: 3
I can also confirm this issue...

Just tested to shot outside the window now and managed get the same issue with my copy of 5d.

OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: I can also confirm this issue...

Many many thanks blueuser, now I know I'm not alone in this. Although I would prefer it cause then it would be probably fixed.

Lets see if other users confirm it. If so let's hope Canon will sell us black mate paint.

Cheers
George
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Victor Engel Forum Pro • Posts: 18,567
Re: I can also confirm this issue...

elgeorgio wrote:

If so let's hope Canon will sell
us black mate paint.

I don't know about you, but I'm not about to paint the inside of my camera. That's something I'd send the camera in for.
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rrcphoto Veteran Member • Posts: 6,173
Re: I can also confirm this issue...

elgeorgio wrote:

Many many thanks blueuser, now I know I'm not alone in this. Although
I would prefer it cause then it would be probably fixed.
Lets see if other users confirm it. If so let's hope Canon will sell
us black mate paint.

wouldn't work

parts of the main mirror are pass through reflective to get light to the AF sub mirror assembly. even a matte surface will still reflect some light...

are you using the lens hood btw? and if not, so you get the same effect with the hood on?

and yeah to the poster a few above .. forgot about image rotation

Jay Bean Veteran Member • Posts: 3,661
I thinking it's not the mirror

As I think about it some more, I don't think it can be the mirror. The lines are too vertically straight vs. the barrel distortion, e.g., if it were as far forward as the mirror I'd expect to see a little bit of angle or curve on the lines.

I'll bet this is light bouncing off the edge of the AA/IR filter frame, the edge of the peizo electric dust cleaner, or the edge of the sensor itself.

Victor Engel wrote:

elgeorgio wrote:

If so let's hope Canon will sell
us black mate paint.

I don't know about you, but I'm not about to paint the inside of my
camera. That's something I'd send the camera in for.
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OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: I thinking it's not the mirror

Victor I'm not 100 % sure that is the mirror but it's very very likely to my opinion.

As I said above I used a small laser pointer to visualize the issue. I had live remote viewing on and was watching on my PC screen.

Initially I suspected a metallic frame around the sensor but no matter how hard I tried I could not achieve any reflection on the sensor. As soon as I hit the banded plastic of the back of the mirror everything looked familiar.

Regarding the paint, of course I'm not doing anything of the kind ! It's only meant as a joke. Good point though, I hope no one takes it seriously and does any damage !

The 40D has a square structure on the back of the mirror flap that has totally different texture and no matter how hard I tried with the laser, I could not reproduce the problem. Further down the flap though the banded plastic is still there.

Cheers
George

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OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
Image quality test

Since unwanted reflections are a long standing enemy of image contrast I did the following test:

Took two pictures (a lot more actually, 11 pairs to be precise, I just present one pair here). The second was with the camera rotated by 180 degrees. Bellow I post one strip of each one (Sorry for size, 1:1 pixel ratio).
All settings were the same for both shots:
Camera on tripod.
Portrait orientation.
Manual focus with live view (focused only once per picture pair).
Release with remote control during live view (see mirror lockup).
Manual exposure (from exif: f4.5, 1/400, ISO 400, EF24-105L @ 105mm).
Shot in Raw and processed in DPP with default settings.
Exported to TIFF and cropped/combined in CS3.
Exported to jpg with maximum quality.

I had to crop a bit to the left/right to make the images best fit.

Observe how the fairly bright sky affects the image quality when it is towards the bottom of the camera.

There is no motion blur, just degradation of contrast ( I had to even convince myself).
Check the letters on the solar collectors.

Note how the situation reverses as you go from right to left. Top strip is worse at right side, bottom strip is worse at left side (do not forget camera was in portrait orientation). The side that was closer to the bottom side of the camera suffers the most.

The top strip has the effect more obvious because the sky at the right side was brighter.

Also note that this is not extreme shooting conditions; the sky is within dynamic range without any highlights recovery.

Nothing catastrophic but goes to show that even if we do not see bright bars across our pictures, the issue is still there and under specific conditions may be real problem for some; being psychological or practical

Cheers
George
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Jay Bean Veteran Member • Posts: 3,661
I stand corrected

Good Test... Looks like my thinking was wrong

elgeorgio wrote:

Victor I'm not 100 % sure that is the mirror but it's very very
likely to my opinion.
As I said above I used a small laser pointer to visualize the issue.
I had live remote viewing on and was watching on my PC screen.

Initially I suspected a metallic frame around the sensor but no
matter how hard I tried I could not achieve any reflection on the
sensor. As soon as I hit the banded plastic of the back of the mirror
everything looked familiar.

Regarding the paint, of course I'm not doing anything of the kind !
It's only meant as a joke. Good point though, I hope no one takes it
seriously and does any damage !

The 40D has a square structure on the back of the mirror flap that
has totally different texture and no matter how hard I tried with the
laser, I could not reproduce the problem. Further down the flap
though the banded plastic is still there.

Cheers
George

Steven Noyes Forum Pro • Posts: 12,372
If you have strong light BEHIND the camera.

it is normal. It is a well known artifact when shooting at night and has been for 30-50 years.

If it is dark BEHIND the camera, return it because that is not normal.

Simple.

Steven

panikspace Regular Member • Posts: 117
Re: I just can't believe that you find this normal !!!

That is definitely not 'normal' under any definition of the word! Lens flare from a bright object outside of the field of view doesn't look like that either.... Isn't it amazing, the answers you get from folks sometimes...

(sorry, don't have a 5DII to check...)

elgeorgio wrote:
Come on ppl, this is a specific test shot !!!!
It's not meant to be nice, It was taken hand held.

I just can't believe that you find this normal !!!
Did you read the post at all ??????

Try for yourselves.. Shoot some video in a similar scene and move the
camera up and down.

qballfl wrote:

It is Normal. You can get a much better shot of this scene using less
than 3200iso and lengthening the shutter exposure.

Instead of your settings,

f4/iso3200/shutter .8seconds...try
f4/iso200/shutter 5-10 seconds depending on light...

Experiment around there and u will get much better shots of nice
night scenes. Tripod required, but it looks like you used one already.

Kusie Regular Member • Posts: 211
Re: I can also confirm this issue...

nesjerry wrote:

Just tested to shot outside the window now and managed get the same
issue with my copy of 5d.

You mean the old 5D or MkII?
Kusie

65tigershark Senior Member • Posts: 1,571
Re: Normal...

Digital Shutterbug wrote:

rrcphoto wrote:

since the mirror swings up, it wouldn't reflecting off the bottom of
the mirror since it's in the wrong spot, so it must be something near
the sensor, close to the bottom of the mirror box.

Are you sure about that? Isn't the image inverted coming out of the
lens? The top of the sensor, next to the mirror in its up position,
actually sees the bottom of the image.

That's what I was always told.

Steve

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OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: If you have strong light BEHIND the camera.

Steven Noyes wrote:

it is normal. It is a well known artifact when shooting at night and
has been for 30-50 years.

If it is dark BEHIND the camera, return it because that is not normal.

Simple.

Steven

Steven, it's not just 30-50 years, it's as long as photography stands.

Lens coating was one of major battlefields in photography and is mostly about reflections.

Problems are there to be solved and improved upon, not to just accept them because they are known for 50 years ! Problems of the kind is not like good wine, the longer they exist the more they annoy.

Especially this particular one, could be so easily improved by a vast amount just by selecting the right material or paint.

How do you feel paying $$$$ for the L glass and having the money almost thrown away because of a $ piece of plastic ?

In the old days I would just get a piece of anti reflective paper and just glue it in. This is not possible now, so I think we have to ask for it.

In the danger of being called a troll and many other names, I will try to find a solution to this.

I would also like to know this forum's opinion on this issue. United we have a much louder voice. For me it is something that limits my shooting style. I did not went looking for this problem, it found me.

But before I consider it an issue or just an isolated incident I would like to know if more people have it.
Please check and report.

Cheers
George

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jimcreative Senior Member • Posts: 2,583
I have another idea as to what it is

I do not think light coming in from the viewfinder would be this focused since it would NOT be entering the lens. I would expect light from the rear to be more diffuse and like a fog than what you have here.

When I was shooting 4x5 I used to get something sort of like this from time to time when a strong light source was just outside the frame. That light would still be part of the optic's image circle so it was getting 'inside the box'. When this light was also just barely out of frame it would then kick off the inside edge of the camera's back and look just like what you have here. If it was flare associated with the lens then it should not produce perfectly perpendicular and parallel streaks. This tells me that focused light from streetlights (that are out of the frame) is entering your camera and then bouncing off of the inner surfaces of the shutter box.

I do not think you will find this to be just with your new 5DII. I suspect that any model and make set up in the same manner, same location, would do the same thing.

You have three choices. Set the shot up with the offending lights MORE out of the frame, IN the frame (where they will flare, but not streak) or use a flag to block the light source in front of the camera.

I am 99% that there is nothing wrong with the camera. It's the shot that was the problem.

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Kusie Regular Member • Posts: 211
My original 5D shows this effect, too [NT]

elgeorgio wrote:

PLEASE if there is anybody out there that owns a 5DmkII just take a
couple of pictures and let us know.

OP elgeorgio Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: I have another idea as to what it is

Hi Jim.

jimcreative wrote:

I do not think light coming in from the viewfinder would be this
focused since it would NOT be entering the lens. I would expect
light from the rear to be more diffuse and like a fog than what you
have here.

Jim, this is mentioned above, the light is reflection from the back side of the mirror flap. The light is the area of the image circle that does not fall on the sensor.

When I was shooting 4x5 I used to get something sort of like this
from time to time when a strong light source was just outside the
frame. That light would still be part of the optic's image circle so
it was getting 'inside the box'. When this light was also just
barely out of frame it would then kick off the inside edge of the
camera's back and look just like what you have here. If it was flare
associated with the lens then it should not produce perfectly
perpendicular and parallel streaks. This tells me that focused light
from streetlights (that are out of the frame) is entering your camera
and then bouncing off of the inner surfaces of the shutter box.

Correct.
My TS-E 24 creates the most problems because of its big image circle.

I do not think you will find this to be just with your new 5DII. I
suspect that any model and make set up in the same manner, same
location, would do the same thing.

Wrong. My 40D (and yours I guess) does not have this problem.

You have three choices. Set the shot up with the offending lights
MORE out of the frame, IN the frame (where they will flare, but not
streak) or use a flag to block the light source in front of the
camera.

4th Choice : Get the back side of the mirror not SO reflective. Don't ask how though...

I am 99% that there is nothing wrong with the camera. It's the shot
that was the problem.

Well, not wrong but in need of improvement.

Check above the degradation of image quality that happens in almost any picture with a bit of strong backlight.

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Cheers
George

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