DXOMark just tested the D3X

Started Jan 15, 2009 | Discussions
sidelight Senior Member • Posts: 1,013
DR is in EV and Tonal Range is in bits (log base 2)

Zane Paxton wrote:

Bernie Ess wrote:

They say the D3x has 13,7stops of DR,

Hi Bernie,

Their description uses the term "Bits" not "Stops". I couldn't find
any definition on their site that defines or describes what they are
doing as far as units..... There are only 10 zones and maybe 7 of
those are actually useful... 13 stops is absurd... They do use
something called "Tonal Range" which is different from their DR
measurements and is indeed defined in f/stops.

Actually, Dynamic Range is given in EV units which are the same as stops. Same as Zones in Zone System. The Tonal Range units are bits on a log scale. Each bit represents a doubling of gray levels. So 10 bits would be 2^10 or 1024 gray levels. I believe that Dynamic Range is theoretically infinite as brightness can continue to increase, not that we can see it or record it all. So, DxOMark is saying the D3X has 13.7 stops normalized to an 8MP 8x12 print (does this for all cameras using the Print view on the DR Tab). I would say you are probably right in that it might be hard to see all of these. But supposedly the info is there.

-- hide signature --

David

Mel Veteran Member • Posts: 3,716
Re: Here I am

Well if there are shortcomings to be revealed. Bringing them to light will only be fair so long as it is done in the anticipated objective manner I am sure we will see from you.
--
Mel
http://www.mellockhartphotography.zenfolio.com
http://www.mellockhartphotography.net

Bernard Languillier Veteran Member • Posts: 4,672
Re: gorgeous example, Bernard

Artichoke wrote:

of the D3X advantage put to excellent use
lovely photograph with great shadow detail retention
at full resolution, the detail is breathtaking

Thank you gentlemen, that combo works really well!

Cheers,
Bernard

genotypewriter Veteran Member • Posts: 4,846
Fuji S5 Pro beats D3X in DR [nt]

mesija wrote:

Nothing comes close in dynamic range from direct competitors.

GTW
--
http://www.flickr.com/genotypewriter

Bernard Languillier Veteran Member • Posts: 4,672
Well...

ddt332 wrote:

Thanks for sharing. If DR of D3x is indeed close to, or better than
D3's, then it will be a possible choice for me, once the price drop
to around current 1ds mark III range. The only negative thing about
it is just diffraction start around f8 f11, which is bad for
landscape.
Can you confirm this if you happen to tested it?

I have been trying to stick to f11 at the minimum. I have been doing lots of DoF stacking these past few years when I was shooting with a Mamiya ZD.

My Helicon Focus multi-CPU license is coming handy. A recent sample shot with a 180mm f2.8.

Cheers,
Bernard

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 25,894
Re: Thanks Frank!

DxO do not measure and present the visual impact of noise. Same noise numbers can correspond to fine grain agreeable and ugly blotchy noise. Noise numbers are different for files white-balanced for different colour temperatures, they do not test those however. Noise should be measured separately for luma and chroma, that is also skipped.

It matters how many gradations of grey are recorded in the last stop. Some of the tested cameras make the last stop barely separable from the previous while others allow for the practical use of the last stop. For example, if you need to open shadows on A900 it is better to sacrifice some DR but shoot as ISO 400 to ISO 640. DxO tests won't show you this because they do not have the criteria for the photographic usefulness of the last stop.

Colour measurements they do are a poor man's substitution of sensor spectral characteristics, and are unusable as such, or as a tool to compare sensors. The more meaningful numbers are numbers of metameric faults by band, say, how many metamers are in the hues that represent skin, foliage, sky.

Mathematics and physics are to be applied to the subject of photography, results should be meaningful and reported in the language of photography; and here DxO tests are lacking.

-- hide signature --
Toermalijn
Toermalijn Forum Pro • Posts: 15,883
Re: A900 beats D2x soundly. /nt

jb_va2001 wrote:

Dr Frank wrote:

Wanted to inform the Nikonians also:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Nikon/D3X

Most impressing are 13.7 Bit of real dynamic @ ISO 100.

Nikon obviously spent much more and much better A/D channels, than
others. This might explain, why the D3X is so expensive.

Compare to Canon and Sony also!

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/ (appareil1) 287|0 (appareil2) 279|0 (appareil3) 265|0 (onglet) 0 (brand) Nikon (brand2) Canon (brand3) Sony
--
Frank

D2x? That's an old camera! we're talking d3x here!LOL!

Toermalijn
Toermalijn Forum Pro • Posts: 15,883
Re: DR is in EV and Tonal Range is in bits (log base 2)

sidelight wrote:

Zane Paxton wrote:

Bernie Ess wrote:

They say the D3x has 13,7stops of DR,

Hi Bernie,

Their description uses the term "Bits" not "Stops". I couldn't find
any definition on their site that defines or describes what they are
doing as far as units..... There are only 10 zones and maybe 7 of
those are actually useful... 13 stops is absurd... They do use
something called "Tonal Range" which is different from their DR
measurements and is indeed defined in f/stops.

Actually, Dynamic Range is given in EV units which are the same as
stops. Same as Zones in Zone System. The Tonal Range units are bits
on a log scale. Each bit represents a doubling of gray levels. So
10 bits would be 2^10 or 1024 gray levels. I believe that Dynamic
Range is theoretically infinite as brightness can continue to
increase, not that we can see it or record it all. So, DxOMark is
saying the D3X has 13.7 stops normalized to an 8MP 8x12 print (does
this for all cameras using the Print view on the DR Tab). I would
say you are probably right in that it might be hard to see all of
these. But supposedly the info is there.

What it means it has nice graditions of colours...better portrayal of subtle colours, skin tones etc. The numbers back up what you see in the examples or prints, fine detail with lovely colours! The more graditions levels you have, the more subtle colours you could portrayal.

MackyLuke Regular Member • Posts: 244
Re: Nikon obviously delivered the best

Toermalijn wrote:

MackyLuke wrote:

No Text

They did, and maybe now some people realize you've gotta pay for the
best.period. Stop the ranting about the price, if you need it and
want it, get it!

That's exactly what I did!
--
I am not young enough to know everything
Oscar Wilde

sidelight Senior Member • Posts: 1,013
Re: DR is in EV and Tonal Range is in bits (log base 2)

Toermalijn wrote:

sidelight wrote:

Zane Paxton wrote:

Bernie Ess wrote:

They say the D3x has 13,7stops of DR,

Hi Bernie,

Their description uses the term "Bits" not "Stops". I couldn't find
any definition on their site that defines or describes what they are
doing as far as units..... There are only 10 zones and maybe 7 of
those are actually useful... 13 stops is absurd... They do use
something called "Tonal Range" which is different from their DR
measurements and is indeed defined in f/stops.

Actually, Dynamic Range is given in EV units which are the same as
stops. Same as Zones in Zone System. The Tonal Range units are bits
on a log scale. Each bit represents a doubling of gray levels. So
10 bits would be 2^10 or 1024 gray levels. I believe that Dynamic
Range is theoretically infinite as brightness can continue to
increase, not that we can see it or record it all. So, DxOMark is
saying the D3X has 13.7 stops normalized to an 8MP 8x12 print (does
this for all cameras using the Print view on the DR Tab). I would
say you are probably right in that it might be hard to see all of
these. But supposedly the info is there.

What it means it has nice graditions of colours...better portrayal of
subtle colours, skin tones etc. The numbers back up what you see in
the examples or prints, fine detail with lovely colours! The more
graditions levels you have, the more subtle colours you could
portrayal.

Toermaljin,

Not sure if you addressed this to me or Zane, but yes I know what higher bit depth will give. I was clarifying the units used for DR and Tonal Range and defining them as it did not appear to be clear in the post I replied to. Finer gradation of tonal values should be discernible. Not so sure about how much DR will be useable in prints.
--
David

Toermalijn
Toermalijn Forum Pro • Posts: 15,883
Re: DR is in EV and Tonal Range is in bits (log base 2)

sidelight wrote:

Toermalijn wrote:

sidelight wrote:

Zane Paxton wrote:

Bernie Ess wrote:

They say the D3x has 13,7stops of DR,

Hi Bernie,

Their description uses the term "Bits" not "Stops". I couldn't find
any definition on their site that defines or describes what they are
doing as far as units..... There are only 10 zones and maybe 7 of
those are actually useful... 13 stops is absurd... They do use
something called "Tonal Range" which is different from their DR
measurements and is indeed defined in f/stops.

Actually, Dynamic Range is given in EV units which are the same as
stops. Same as Zones in Zone System. The Tonal Range units are bits
on a log scale. Each bit represents a doubling of gray levels. So
10 bits would be 2^10 or 1024 gray levels. I believe that Dynamic
Range is theoretically infinite as brightness can continue to
increase, not that we can see it or record it all. So, DxOMark is
saying the D3X has 13.7 stops normalized to an 8MP 8x12 print (does
this for all cameras using the Print view on the DR Tab). I would
say you are probably right in that it might be hard to see all of
these. But supposedly the info is there.

What it means it has nice graditions of colours...better portrayal of
subtle colours, skin tones etc. The numbers back up what you see in
the examples or prints, fine detail with lovely colours! The more
graditions levels you have, the more subtle colours you could
portrayal.

Toermaljin,

Not sure if you addressed this to me or Zane, but yes I know what
higher bit depth will give. I was clarifying the units used for DR
and Tonal Range and defining them as it did not appear to be clear in
the post I replied to. Finer gradation of tonal values should be
discernible. Not so sure about how much DR will be useable in prints.
--
David

That's why it is probably so confusing, most of the time printers/also professional print is limited in comparsion to what a camera can do! a DR of 13.7 in print seems extremely high...It just tells us that you are able to print fine detail with discernible colour graditions. e.g., better skin tones etc. In comparison to the raw file, print will always be limited due to rgb versus cmyk colour gamut! Pigments used in professional prints close the gap slightly but nevertheless...You cannot print beyond you colour gamut limitation, as in print.

Maybe they mean it looks like a DR of 13.7 due to the superb graditions and tones.

Toermalijn
Toermalijn Forum Pro • Posts: 15,883
Re: Nikon obviously delivered the best

MackyLuke wrote:

Toermalijn wrote:

MackyLuke wrote:

No Text

They did, and maybe now some people realize you've gotta pay for the
best.period. Stop the ranting about the price, if you need it and
want it, get it!

That's exactly what I did!
--
I am not young enough to know everything
Oscar Wilde

You are a lucky man and congrats on a superb camera!

sidelight Senior Member • Posts: 1,013
Re: DR is in EV and Tonal Range is in bits (log base 2)

Toermalijn wrote:

sidelight wrote:

Toermalijn wrote:

sidelight wrote:

Zane Paxton wrote:

Bernie Ess wrote:

They say the D3x has 13,7stops of DR,

Hi Bernie,

Their description uses the term "Bits" not "Stops". I couldn't find
any definition on their site that defines or describes what they are
doing as far as units..... There are only 10 zones and maybe 7 of
those are actually useful... 13 stops is absurd... They do use
something called "Tonal Range" which is different from their DR
measurements and is indeed defined in f/stops.

Actually, Dynamic Range is given in EV units which are the same as
stops. Same as Zones in Zone System. The Tonal Range units are bits
on a log scale. Each bit represents a doubling of gray levels. So
10 bits would be 2^10 or 1024 gray levels. I believe that Dynamic
Range is theoretically infinite as brightness can continue to
increase, not that we can see it or record it all. So, DxOMark is
saying the D3X has 13.7 stops normalized to an 8MP 8x12 print (does
this for all cameras using the Print view on the DR Tab). I would
say you are probably right in that it might be hard to see all of
these. But supposedly the info is there.

What it means it has nice graditions of colours...better portrayal of
subtle colours, skin tones etc. The numbers back up what you see in
the examples or prints, fine detail with lovely colours! The more
graditions levels you have, the more subtle colours you could
portrayal.

Toermaljin,

Not sure if you addressed this to me or Zane, but yes I know what
higher bit depth will give. I was clarifying the units used for DR
and Tonal Range and defining them as it did not appear to be clear in
the post I replied to. Finer gradation of tonal values should be
discernible. Not so sure about how much DR will be useable in prints.
--
David

That's why it is probably so confusing, most of the time
printers/also professional print is limited in comparsion to what a
camera can do! a DR of 13.7 in print seems extremely high...It just
tells us that you are able to print fine detail with discernible
colour graditions. e.g., better skin tones etc. In comparison to the
raw file, print will always be limited due to rgb versus cmyk colour
gamut! Pigments used in professional prints close the gap slightly
but nevertheless...You cannot print beyond you colour gamut
limitation, as in print.

Maybe they mean it looks like a DR of 13.7 due to the superb
graditions and tones.

The Tonal Range is what will give the smoother transitions in color and luminance -more bits gives more levels or finer gradations. The DR is just the absolute difference in brightness between recordable black and the lightest white. The tonal range is how finely this DR is divided iinto discrete digitized levels. Yes, prints may have a hard time in showing full DR but tonal range should have impact especially in larger prints. Similar to medium format.

-- hide signature --

David

Toermalijn
Toermalijn Forum Pro • Posts: 15,883
Re: DR is in EV and Tonal Range is in bits (log base 2)

sidelight wrote:

Toermalijn wrote:

sidelight wrote:

Toermalijn wrote:

sidelight wrote:

Zane Paxton wrote:

Bernie Ess wrote:

They say the D3x has 13,7stops of DR,

Hi Bernie,

Their description uses the term "Bits" not "Stops". I couldn't find
any definition on their site that defines or describes what they are
doing as far as units..... There are only 10 zones and maybe 7 of
those are actually useful... 13 stops is absurd... They do use
something called "Tonal Range" which is different from their DR
measurements and is indeed defined in f/stops.

Actually, Dynamic Range is given in EV units which are the same as
stops. Same as Zones in Zone System. The Tonal Range units are bits
on a log scale. Each bit represents a doubling of gray levels. So
10 bits would be 2^10 or 1024 gray levels. I believe that Dynamic
Range is theoretically infinite as brightness can continue to
increase, not that we can see it or record it all. So, DxOMark is
saying the D3X has 13.7 stops normalized to an 8MP 8x12 print (does
this for all cameras using the Print view on the DR Tab). I would
say you are probably right in that it might be hard to see all of
these. But supposedly the info is there.

What it means it has nice graditions of colours...better portrayal of
subtle colours, skin tones etc. The numbers back up what you see in
the examples or prints, fine detail with lovely colours! The more
graditions levels you have, the more subtle colours you could
portrayal.

Toermaljin,

Not sure if you addressed this to me or Zane, but yes I know what
higher bit depth will give. I was clarifying the units used for DR
and Tonal Range and defining them as it did not appear to be clear in
the post I replied to. Finer gradation of tonal values should be
discernible. Not so sure about how much DR will be useable in prints.
--
David

That's why it is probably so confusing, most of the time
printers/also professional print is limited in comparsion to what a
camera can do! a DR of 13.7 in print seems extremely high...It just
tells us that you are able to print fine detail with discernible
colour graditions. e.g., better skin tones etc. In comparison to the
raw file, print will always be limited due to rgb versus cmyk colour
gamut! Pigments used in professional prints close the gap slightly
but nevertheless...You cannot print beyond you colour gamut
limitation, as in print.

Maybe they mean it looks like a DR of 13.7 due to the superb
graditions and tones.

The Tonal Range is what will give the smoother transitions in color
and luminance -more bits gives more levels or finer gradations. The
DR is just the absolute difference in brightness between recordable
black and the lightest white. The tonal range is how finely this DR
is divided iinto discrete digitized levels. Yes, prints may have a
hard time in showing full DR but tonal range should have impact
especially in larger prints. Similar to medium format.

Agree, fully understand what you're talking about!

I think more and more people realize the d3x might actually be worth the money!

Compared to MF, especially beginning at 39MP and up, 8 grand + money for top lenses is peanuts! AND you've got the flexibility to boot.

jb_va2001 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,741
For comparison sake, many love the D2x images. /nt

Toermalijn wrote:

jb_va2001 wrote:

Dr Frank wrote:

Wanted to inform the Nikonians also:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Nikon/D3X

Most impressing are 13.7 Bit of real dynamic @ ISO 100.

Nikon obviously spent much more and much better A/D channels, than
others. This might explain, why the D3X is so expensive.

Compare to Canon and Sony also!

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/ (appareil1) 287|0 (appareil2) 279|0 (appareil3) 265|0 (onglet) 0 (brand) Nikon (brand2) Canon (brand3) Sony
--
Frank

D2x? That's an old camera! we're talking d3x here!LOL!

ddt332 Contributing Member • Posts: 760
Re: Well...

Thank you, Bernard. I heard someone mentioned about this DOF stacking before however don't know how to do it. Would you sharing some information or link with me if you don't mind?

photonut2008 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,558
Re: Thanks Frank!

Iliah Borg wrote:

For example, if you need to open shadows on A900 it is better
to sacrifice some DR but shoot as ISO 400 to ISO 640. DxO tests won't
show you this because they do not have the criteria for the
photographic usefulness of the last stop.

This suggests that using ISO to bracket might be a preferred approach to using shutter speed with the A900 in situations where shutter speed is a limiting factor; that's something I never considered using with my D300.

MackyLuke Regular Member • Posts: 244
Re: Fuji S5 Pro beats D3X in DR [nt]

genotypewriter wrote:

mesija wrote:

Nothing comes close in dynamic range from direct competitors.

GTW
--
http://www.flickr.com/genotypewriter

Mr. Typewriter.

"Beats D3x in DR"? Where did you get your numbers from? On DXO's web site, the dynamic range seems to be VERY close but the D3x arrives first. For all the other benchmark the D3x wins.

Again, where did you get these numbers? Please add a reference.
--
I am not young enough to know everything
Oscar Wilde

genotypewriter Veteran Member • Posts: 4,846
Re: Fuji S5 Pro beats D3X in DR [nt]

MackyLuke wrote:

genotypewriter wrote:

mesija wrote:

Nothing comes close in dynamic range from direct competitors.

GTW
--
http://www.flickr.com/genotypewriter

Mr. Typewriter.

"Beats D3x in DR"? Where did you get your numbers from? On DXO's web
site, the dynamic range seems to be VERY close but the D3x arrives
first.

No it doesn't... did you check?

For all the other benchmark the D3x wins.

That's the consolation prize I guess...

Again, where did you get these numbers? Please add a reference.

Is it that hard to use a drop down combo box?

GTW
--
http://www.flickr.com/genotypewriter

sidelight Senior Member • Posts: 1,013
Re: Fuji S5 Pro beats D3X in DR [nt]

D3X is slightly ahead when DR is normalized for print (8MB @ 8x12). They are essentially equivalent at lowest ISOs. The S5 wins increasing ISO to 800.
--
David

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads