Inital comparison D3x - D3 - P45+ at base ISO

Started Dec 20, 2008 | Discussions
jackie spanner Forum Member • Posts: 51
Re: Inital comparison D3x - D3 - P45+ at base ISO

Nikon 24-70mm is one of their best !

and in any case

Nikon don't make any good primes !!!

the 28 1.4 is quite good stopped down but soft as hell wide open

you have to compare what is available on each sustem and thats what the OP has done

Kerry Pierce
Kerry Pierce Forum Pro • Posts: 19,757
thanks, Iliah

That is similar to the routine I use, but better refined. I can see where the improvements should be in my routine.

Thanks.

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JimLenexa Regular Member • Posts: 290
Don't forget about stitching -

If you want REALLY big and detailed images, you can use almost any DSLR, a decent lens, and some good software. I would prefer a DSLR with good clean pixels like the D700 or D3.
--
Jim Meyer

sebastian73 Contributing Member • Posts: 598
Danke "Jost" für den Test :-)

Thank you very much for the Test.
I am very pleased to see the results of the P45.

Best regards to Thun

Grues Sebastian
--

Nikon D3, D2x, AFS 24-70/2.8, AFD 85mm/1.4, AFS 105mm/2.8VR, AFS 70-200/2.8VR, TC-1.4E II, SB-800

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Livio Spallone Regular Member • Posts: 355
Re: 20-24mp total waste of time: not in my opinion

Dslr sweet spot can be at 12-16 mpx on FULL FRAME but my D3x can work :
as the better high resolution camera as per today.
as a D3 (12 mpx ,medium resolution setting FX format, very low noise).
as an high level Apsc ( 10,6 mpx ,7 fps , Dx format, better noise than D300)

and all my new lenses and the very good old ones have extended their usefulness and reach.

FRAME noise being equal more pixel gives flexibility you can use to have better resolution or reach.
--
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m_appeal Veteran Member • Posts: 3,434
Two questions...

1) I've seen numerous claims to the effect that a D3X / 5dII will give you the same noise at 12 MP as D700/D3... where is this coming from?

2) How much of an advantage is the extra resolution of the D3X really? I don't understand why people keep saying D3X will blow away D3 in detail when the increase in resolution isn't that significant?

m_appeal Veteran Member • Posts: 3,434
Seems that way... why people think 24 MP is going to give them tons

more detail... I don't know. You'd need a lot more megapixels....

dchphoto Regular Member • Posts: 381
Re: 20-24mp total waste of time

jackie spanner wrote:

depicts very well my contention that 35mm DSLR hit a sweet spot
somewhere below 20mp and if you have a decent 12 or 16mp DSLR and
want some sort of significant improvement that will properly affect
your images, your work and your clients satisfaction... then do
yourself a favour and upgrade to MF or Leica S2

20-24mp etc.. is a bit of a waste of time

That is assuming that no better lenses exist for the F mount than the 24-70. People need to realize that the 24-70 is not the proper lens for the d3x. Keep it on your D3 and D700 for stunning 8x10's and smaller. Fortunately, there are better lenses and these stopped down a bit should outresolve the 24mb sensor according to the available mtf and other relevant lens testing data.

24mm PCE
45mm PCE
85mm PCE
14-24 2.8 (barely)
50mm 1.4 afs
50mm 1.8 afd
60mm micro afs
85mm 1.4
105mm micro vr afs
zeiss 21mm and 25mm perhaps others
Sigma 70mm macro
sigma 150mm macro
200mm 2.0 (easily)
the recent afs tele's

I'm still waiting for someone to load up a D3x with the 200 f2 prime and show what can be really be done!

Osku Veteran Member • Posts: 3,985
Re: Something wrong

Quentin (UK) wrote:

The P45 should be the best, but the difference should not be that
obvious. I suspect the lens or focus on the D3x. The D3x is barely
better than the D3, which is ridiculous.

f/11 is diffraction limited with D3x pixel size, and so he should have used f/8 instead, perhaps even below that (better would be to shoot the range between f/4.8-> f/11 and see what delivers best with D3x and then use that.

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jackie spanner Forum Member • Posts: 51
Re: 20-24mp total waste of time

it may improve the D3x image a little bit

but once you fcator in that horrid AA filter, in camera noise reduction etc..

teh difference really isn;'t going to be anything significant over a D3 image thats been image resized and smart sharpened a little in photoshop

yes, of course there will be some sort of visible difference at 100%

but for editorial photography or large prints... a negligible difference that your clients won't even spot

hit them with an H3d image though, a phase one shot .. and then the applause will start sounding

dchphoto Regular Member • Posts: 381
Re: Seems that way... why people think 24 MP is going to give them tons

m_appeal wrote:

more detail... I don't know. You'd need a lot more megapixels....

Not really. I sold my d200 when the s5 came out. Even though the D200 image resolved 4 more MP additional info. There is more to an image than mp's. The s5 is in a different league as far as DR and noise from the d200. The s5 images were far better in actual print than the d200 images were- even in larder sizes. The d700 is in still another league from the s5. The quality of the MP's plays a huge difference as does the processing pipeline. When then d3x image is reduced to the d3 size, it does indeed produce "cleaner" pixels than the D3 in the examples I have seen. Cleaner pixels, better DR, a better AA filter, and most importantly, a BETTER LENS, play a huge roll along with more mp's.

Martin Datzinger Senior Member • Posts: 2,248
Glad the Nikon has an AA filter

Look at all the colour artifacts around the otherwise impressive detail of the MF back!

Kind regards,
Martin

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OP Jost von Allmen Forum Member • Posts: 66
Re: Glad the Nikon has an AA filter

You are the first one to mention that!

As I have stated in the beginning, it was just a quick test, didn't bother to remove it.

The P45+ (and ANY other back without the AA-filter) can show moire, even in landscape shots, but it's easily removed with the tools available in Capture One V4.5.

During all my printing experience, I have realised that very often the moire you might still see on screen at 100% simply doesn't show up in print, obviously depending on the output size.

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m_appeal Veteran Member • Posts: 3,434
Obviously, there is more to it than pixels... but I odn't see how you'd get tons

more detail unless you really increase the resolution.

Where are the images that make you say resized D3X is better than D700/D3? If anytihng, it's the D3 starting out with cleaner pixels.

Kerry Pierce
Kerry Pierce Forum Pro • Posts: 19,757
Re: Two questions...

m_appeal wrote:

1) I've seen numerous claims to the effect that a D3X / 5dII will
give you the same noise at 12 MP as D700/D3... where is this coming
from?

Part fact, part fiction, I'd say. It's not unreasonable to assume that technology has progressed in the time since the intro of the d3/d300, so it's quite likely that actual noise performance has improved. Print size also has a significant part in apparent noise. Greater pixel density can mask apparent noise in a print, to a certain degree. The other part is hype, AFAICT. The 5dII fanboys claim that downsizing to 12mp, gives identical or better noise performance, with better detail than the d3. When asked for proof, I've yet to get a response. It's not a secret that downsizing an image will give the appearance of better noise performance, which is true with any sensor. Downsizing throws away pixels. But, to downsize and claim to only throw away the noise pixels is a magic trick, not reality. How would any downsizing process know what is detail and what is noise?

2) How much of an advantage is the extra resolution of the D3X
really? I don't understand why people keep saying D3X will blow away
D3 in detail when the increase in resolution isn't that significant?

It's a 40% increase in resolution, which can certainly be seen. Whether or not that would be really significant, would depend greatly on user need, intended output, print/viewing size, and many other factors, I'd guess. Some people will likely derive benefit, perhaps a significant benefit from the additional resolution. Most average users probably would not. It seems likely to me that in order to derive significant benefit from the added resolution, the user would have to employ strict shooting discipline, the best glass and support systems, and strict post processing and printing disciplines and equipment.

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OP Jost von Allmen Forum Member • Posts: 66
Re: one question for the OP

Hi Tom
I have made available the two original RAW files from the D3 and the D3x here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=30519&st=0&gopid=246094&#entry246094

So you can do your own converting and resizing, the crops of the P45+ are here in the beginning of this thread, just work with these.

Good luck

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Thomas Streng Senior Member • Posts: 2,771
Re: one question for the OP

thank you!

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,019
Re: Inital comparison D3x - D3 - P45+ at base ISO

Back to reality with a bump: little cameras are for artists and camera-poets, for reportage stuff of all kinds. Personally I haven't ever understood the pixel-peeper. These creatures should surely know-as Ken Rockwell is at pains and at length to point out- that medium and large format gives THAT much better results. To me 5d2 and Sony A900 files look noisy and soft: and to me they appear as though they have been uprezzed from an 11MP sensor (is that why they are doubled in MP?) The D3X is easily the best of the bunch and were I extremely rich , would I buy one? No, I would use MF!!! as my reportage thingy, as folk used to do before the 35mm dominance of photography.

Nikon could give me one though......

Eye-opener ain'it?!

Martin Datzinger Senior Member • Posts: 2,248
Re: Glad the Nikon has an AA filter

Hi!

Thanks for the reply! Is there a one-click action (like sharpening, which does completely overcome the unsharpness from an AA filter) in Capture One and could you please show me what that makes of the detail in these crops?

Kind regards,
Martin

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m_appeal Veteran Member • Posts: 3,434
Re: Two questions...

I don't know... in the examples I've seen, noise doesn't just "disappear" if you downsize, sure it will seem less apparent, but it won't disappear or be less than in a 12 MP image. I've also seen claims that sRAW in effect will give better performance than downsizing...

A D3X would give you a 24X36 at 168 DPI vs 119 DPI from a D3.... you'd want to upsize still... so where is the dramatic difference even at that print size... Sure 119 DP by itself is really poor, 168 DPI would be better, but still nowhere near great. So to me when people saying it will kill D3 in detail... I don't know it... just sounds silly.

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