Worse than the Black Dot problem, 5D Mark II banding

Started Dec 13, 2008 | Discussions
Gene G Regular Member • Posts: 259
Worse than the Black Dot problem, 5D Mark II banding

Just came across a post @mobile01.com (in Chinese)

http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=244&t=867681&last=9400389

If you have a decent monitor, you should be able to see the banding in the shadow, it's very noticable:

Here below are 2 other pictures (huge original files), please look into the right end side: (the red wood and the blue background)

http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/readarticlepic.asp?id=7191&fn=/album/pic/reviews/5DII/smp_2/102.jpg&

http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/readarticlepic.asp?id=7191&fn=/album/pic/reviews/5DII/smp_2/101.jpg&

The black dot doesn't bother me and I was going to buy a 5D II until I saw this ... now I am really hesitated. I am not sure what causes this but hopefully it can be fixed by the firmware.

Gene

jerryk Veteran Member • Posts: 6,628
Re: Worse than the Black Dot problem, 5D Mark II banding

That is really easy to do when you increase the rightness in very underexposed area in post. Do you have the raw file?

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jerryk.smugmug.com

xilvar Senior Member • Posts: 1,403
Re: Worse than the Black Dot problem, 5D Mark II banding

I haven't seen much banding with what I've shot so far. There is some visible banding in the horizontal direction at ISO 6400 but it seems pretty reasonable considering the level of noise at hand at that point. At ISO 3200 There's probably still banding, but I can't see any banding myself in regions purposely exposed at -5 stops.

At any ISO below that it seems to just get better. I haven't seen any weird two dimensional banding like that photo shows in any of my shots. only the typical horizontal banding at iso 6400.

I'm quite impressed with the advances in reduced noise overall. I guess that's what I get jumping all the way from the 20d to the 5d mk2 though.

Barnett Contributing Member • Posts: 929
That is VERY bad

An ISO 100 shot cannot look that bad. Did you not perhaps underexpose the shot and then increase the exposure in RAW conversion? If not then I would say your camera is defective. That cannot be right.

Barnett

Gene G wrote:

Just came across a post @mobile01.com (in Chinese)

http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=244&t=867681&last=9400389

If you have a decent monitor, you should be able to see the banding
in the shadow, it's very noticable:

Here below are 2 other pictures (huge original files), please look
into the right end side: (the red wood and the blue background)

http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/readarticlepic.asp?id=7191&fn=/album/pic/reviews/5DII/smp_2/102.jpg&

http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/readarticlepic.asp?id=7191&fn=/album/pic/reviews/5DII/smp_2/101.jpg&

The black dot doesn't bother me and I was going to buy a 5D II until
I saw this ... now I am really hesitated. I am not sure what causes
this but hopefully it can be fixed by the firmware.

Gene

Oak and Acorn Veteran Member • Posts: 6,124
You may find this very, very interesting, but

I've seen this exact same red/blue noise pattern in 50D images as well, only on a smaller scale of course due to the smaller image size.

I was afraid this would be an issue with the newest Canon models, prehaps something to do with Digic IV, I don't know.

Another reason I opted for the older 5D recently.

Gene G wrote:

Just came across a post @mobile01.com (in Chinese)

http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=244&t=867681&last=9400389

If you have a decent monitor, you should be able to see the banding
in the shadow, it's very noticable:

Here below are 2 other pictures (huge original files), please look
into the right end side: (the red wood and the blue background)

http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/readarticlepic.asp?id=7191&fn=/album/pic/reviews/5DII/smp_2/102.jpg&

http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/readarticlepic.asp?id=7191&fn=/album/pic/reviews/5DII/smp_2/101.jpg&

The black dot doesn't bother me and I was going to buy a 5D II until
I saw this ... now I am really hesitated. I am not sure what causes
this but hopefully it can be fixed by the firmware.

Gene

bitjunkie Regular Member • Posts: 379
5D does similar things.

I believe I have seen similar things from the 5D in extreme circumstances - like radically pushing an underexposed area in post processing using levels.

The exact patterns may be different, but in both cases the noise that exists appears correlated and not totally random. People have called it banding, as well as other things....

I have only seen this in a couple of images, but I am sure I have seen it.

Oak and Acorn Veteran Member • Posts: 6,124
Not like this though - Re: 5D does similar things.

And it didn't take pushing the exposure much for me to get the 50D images to produce this pattern.

bitjunkie wrote:

I believe I have seen similar things from the 5D in extreme
circumstances - like radically pushing an underexposed area in post
processing using levels.

The exact patterns may be different, but in both cases the noise that
exists appears correlated and not totally random. People have called
it banding, as well as other things....

bitjunkie Regular Member • Posts: 379
The example photo seems a pretty extreme situation.

I still think the photo subject involves a pretty extreme contrast difference and to make things worse the under exposed areas are devoid of any pattern texture (its just pavement) and so there is nothing to mask noise banding if it were present.

And so the banding is 'easily' detectable by your eye.

(Actually I had to look at my calibrated monitor from an oblique angle to accentuate the low level contrast to even see what you were talking about)

alptraum Forum Member • Posts: 85
Re: The example photo seems a pretty extreme situation.

check the other two pics he linked to - they're far worse. But I'm not about to start blaming the camera for this one - I'd like to see those .raw files.

gdanmitchell
gdanmitchell Veteran Member • Posts: 7,736
Re: 5D does similar things.

bitjunkie wrote:

I believe I have seen similar things from the 5D in extreme
circumstances - like radically pushing an underexposed area in post
processing using levels.

Absolutely. If you push the underexposed shadows in a 5D RAW image to try to get some shadow detail you will get noise and banding.

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G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
IM: gdanmitchell
'Like you, I also own photography stuff.'

ozcreations Forum Member • Posts: 67
RF Interference

My 40D would do wierd stuff when in the vacinity of high power transmission towers, like TV ones. It could just be some wierd signal introduced into the cemera. or not
--
http://www.brendandaveyphotography.com

Stefan_H Junior Member • Posts: 34
Re: Worse than the Black Dot problem, 5D Mark II banding

Looks bad, what lens was used. To me I really think its interferance from either lens aperture motor or cellphone in his pocket. Is it full RAW or SRAW? Banding can become evident when images are shrunk.

JayDub38 New Member • Posts: 9
Nothing New

This is not anything new. If the detail is not there--it's just not there. Pushing it will only introduce noise that would otherwise be below threshold levels (i.e. black). A lot of signals are flying when you press the shutter release. To effectively eliminate all the noise generated by internal circuitry would necessitate larger and heavier bodies/lenses and the consumer will never go for that.

The only raw shadow detail I have seen that you could really push aggressively are those off of Sigma/Foveon cameras--quite impressive--but they have other issues.

The moral of the story? Bracket and blend if you want deep shadow detail and no blown highlights. Cameras are a long way from being as good as an eye.

JW

willysp Regular Member • Posts: 476
Re: The example photo seems a pretty extreme situation.

bitjunkie wrote:

(Actually I had to look at my calibrated monitor from an oblique
angle to accentuate the low level contrast to even see what you were
talking about)

It was immediately visible at first glance on my monitor (LG W2600H).

RedFox88 Forum Pro • Posts: 30,315
but it was iso100, not being pushed

JayDub38 wrote:

This is not anything new. If the detail is not there--it's just not
there. Pushing it will only introduce noise that would otherwise be
below threshold levels (i.e. black). A lot of signals are flying

it was an iso100 shot, base iso, so it's not being pushed at all. Or maybe was the light optimizer turned on that would cause it?

Oak and Acorn Veteran Member • Posts: 6,124
Re: you will get noise and banding

This is more then just "banding". This is a checkerboard pattern that I've seen even in non-overexposed areas of the 50D. Very faint, but there none-the-less, and it's nothing I ever seen in any of my previous or other current Canon dslr's.

gdanmitchell wrote:

bitjunkie wrote:

I believe I have seen similar things from the 5D in extreme
circumstances - like radically pushing an underexposed area in post
processing using levels.

Absolutely. If you push the underexposed shadows in a 5D RAW image to
try to get some shadow detail you will get noise and banding.

Stepanfo Senior Member • Posts: 1,277
This aint banding - this is

Or tessellating?

allnak Regular Member • Posts: 363
This aint rectangulating...this is weird

Stepanfo wrote:

Or tessellating?

Stepanfo Senior Member • Posts: 1,277
Even more visible tessellating

OP Gene G Regular Member • Posts: 259
More infomation on this issue

1. this happens on all ISO, including ISO 100
2. the symptom can be eased by turning chroma NR on (1-10)

Original file: -------

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