Bayer - Foveon comparison

Started Nov 23, 2008 | Discussions
John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 21,861
Re: Resolution versus detail......

Lin Evans wrote:

Sorry John,

I left my crystal ball at the office. I didn't design the Canon jpg
conversion....

You don't need a crystal ball to see bad processing of RAW data.

I can't tell from your postage stamp post........

It's a 100% crop. It's small because it is only a fraction of the entire image, but contains ALL of the area in which your particular critique, which I am replying to, refers.

No, the BS is coming from the peanut gallery - you seem always to
have an opinion based on what? Your extensive experience with the
Foveon processor?

I don't have to handle one to see what it does; the only user-controlled parameters are choice of subject and exposure, which are not the topic here.

Which part of greater color resolution uniformity don't you
understand??

Which part of "I wasn't talking about that" don't you understand? Regardless; it is a difference in conversion style, as anyone who knows anything knows. The sky is not blown out in the 50D RAW, and even if it were, it would be something the user should know when using the camera and adjust for.

Which part of better dynamic range don't you understand?

The 50D has much better DR than the SD14. Stop kidding yourself. SD14 shadows are almost unusable because of the blotchy blue/green noise. I've seen it in black hair at ISO 100.

I see greater shadow detail in the SD14 conversion than in the 50D
conversion and I don't see blown highlights. That says greater
dynamic range to me....

If that says that, you are a very simple soul. Both cameras have various style/quality settings for in-camera JPEGs.

Let me hold the mirror for you to see the "Bee Ess" - LOL

Where BS is the fat, you won't find much leaner than I. I am only interested in the truth.

-- hide signature --

John

jrdigitalart
jrdigitalart Veteran Member • Posts: 3,899
Re: Resolution versus detail......

John Sheehy wrote:

The 50D has much better DR than the SD14. Stop kidding yourself.
SD14 shadows are almost unusable because of the blotchy blue/green
noise. I've seen it in black hair at ISO 100.

John, you say you do not need to use an SD14 to form an opinion re noise in black hair. That is precisely why you really need to use the SD14, John, so that you can find out for yourself that by using it in accordance with its (sensor) characteristics, the noise aint there.

Where BS is the fat, you won't find much leaner than I. I am only
interested in the truth.

As I said above, and if you really, honestly want to pursue the truth, John, you need to use the camera yourself.

And as for the DR of the SD14 not being up to the D50's par? Now THAT is pure BE. But once again, John, only because you admit you have never used an SD14.

-- hide signature --

Sincere regards, Jim Roelofs

May you too discover the light on your journey.

Please visit my gallery at http://www.pbase.com/jrdigitalart/

alisD Contributing Member • Posts: 627
These comparisons

have been popping up for years. it was once exclaimed that the SD14 was very close to matching the 12MP 5D, now all of a sudden it's exclaimed to be very close to the 15MP 50D. i don't see how the SD14 may have miraculously increased it's resolving power over time.

i like the SD10 and SD14 when i was shooting with them and still have a DP1, so it could be said i am a foveon fan, but really, it doesn't match up to the resolving power of the brute force bayers, no matter what methodology one uses...but so what. it other advantages. if upscaling is a concern i'll shoot large format.

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richard stone Veteran Member • Posts: 3,095
Re: about color...

carlos roncatti wrote:

I like the self-portrait.

Meanwhile, I have always admired the people with perfect color memory.

And I always wonder about people who don't realize that shadows are often blue. And those who fail to see that the color of the illumination might affect white balance.

Which is why I figure, when it comes to color, for most uses, unless you are doing a catalog, what counts in most cases is coming close, but keeping in mind what the purpose of the picture is. And in some cases fidelity is not the point at all.

Is this a creative enterprise?

Of course, I always yield in my opinions to those professional photographers who presently work in the mall photo studios. They are true pros.

Richard

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rocklobster Senior Member • Posts: 1,408
Re: Sigma does market it as 14MP

Hi Erik

Yes, resolution should only be measured in lines per unit length.

Perhaps it was the press releases and reviews that primarily list the Foveon as a 4.8Mp sensor. Where there are statements like "it has very good resolution for a 4.8Mp sensor but is not up to the level of better CCDs in DSLRs" without explaining the differences in the technologies and the compromises required in CCDs to make them work.

I would like an SD14, what is it selling for now? I've seen it here in Oz for $1500 - thats US$2300.

Cheers

Lin Evans
Lin Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 17,580
Re: Resolution versus detail......

Well John,

snip

Which part of better dynamic range don't you understand?

The 50D has much better DR than the SD14. Stop kidding yourself.
SD14 shadows are almost unusable because of the blotchy blue/green
noise. I've seen it in black hair at ISO 100.

You ignorance of the Foveon processor and Sigma SD14 processing is exceeded only by your arrogance.

I see greater shadow detail in the SD14 conversion than in the 50D
conversion and I don't see blown highlights. That says greater
dynamic range to me....

If that says that, you are a very simple soul. Both cameras have
various style/quality settings for in-camera JPEGs.

Which is immaterial to this discussion. This "simple soul" then believes you are blind.

Let me hold the mirror for you to see the "Bee Ess" - LOL

Where BS is the fat, you won't find much leaner than I. I am only
interested in the truth.

Truth? Whose truth? What you are interested in, as evidenced by your continued harping, is arguing your tiresome "I see aliasing" tome and promoting your "I want to see greater pixel density" and "all cameras need an AA filter" dissertation. It didn't go unnoticed that you once again attempted to bait people in this thread who thankfully, ignored your comment...

Lin

Gene Hack Senior Member • Posts: 1,011
Re: Resolution versus detail......

jrdigitalart wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

SD14 shadows are almost unusable because of the blotchy blue/green
noise. I've seen it in black hair at ISO 100.

John, you say you do not need to use an SD14 to form an opinion re
noise in black hair. That is precisely why you really need to use the
SD14, John, so that you can find out for yourself that by using it in
accordance with its (sensor) characteristics, the noise aint there.

And as for the DR of the SD14 not being up to the D50's par? Now THAT
is pure BE. But once again, John, only because you admit you have
never used an SD14.

Jim,

Your incorrect here and You know that.
What You claim has no proof in real life.
Black hair ALWAYS shows noise @ ISO 100.
The only time when You have little to zero noise is @ 50 ISO.

Stop claiming what is untrue and try to convince people with Your reality
distorsion.
While the SD14 is a great camera, it has weakness wherever there is low light,
aka the light has too little power to cross the silicon.
Therefore it has plenty of headroom in the light.

hairexample I found on Carls site:

jrdigitalart
jrdigitalart Veteran Member • Posts: 3,899
Re: Resolution versus detail......

Gene Hack wrote:

jrdigitalart wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

SD14 shadows are almost unusable because of the blotchy blue/green
noise. I've seen it in black hair at ISO 100.

John, you say you do not need to use an SD14 to form an opinion re
noise in black hair. That is precisely why you really need to use the
SD14, John, so that you can find out for yourself that by using it in
accordance with its (sensor) characteristics, the noise aint there.

And as for the DR of the SD14 not being up to the D50's par? Now THAT
is pure BE. But once again, John, only because you admit you have
never used an SD14.

Jim,

Your incorrect here and You know that.
What You claim has no proof in real life.
Black hair ALWAYS shows noise @ ISO 100.
The only time when You have little to zero noise is @ 50 ISO.

Stop claiming what is untrue and try to convince people with Your
reality
distorsion.
While the SD14 is a great camera, it has weakness wherever there is
low light,
aka the light has too little power to cross the silicon.
Therefore it has plenty of headroom in the light.

hairexample I found on Carls site:

That's the trouble with you speed readers, you always jump to conclusions without thorough investigation.

Where in MY text did you read 100ISO? Will you EVER learn to cut the BE?

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Sincere regards, Jim Roelofs

sergifotocat Regular Member • Posts: 359
Re: Resolution versus detail......

Gene Hack wrote:

Jim,

Your incorrect here and You know that.
What You claim has no proof in real life.
Black hair ALWAYS shows noise @ ISO 100.
The only time when You have little to zero noise is @ 50 ISO.

Stop claiming what is untrue and try to convince people with Your
reality
distorsion.
While the SD14 is a great camera, it has weakness wherever there is
low light,
aka the light has too little power to cross the silicon.
Therefore it has plenty of headroom in the light.

Hi,

This picture you posted is an early SD14 shot (2007/4/14) at 200iso with the earliest firmware version 1.0 (v1.8 is available right now) and processed through the earliest SPP (v.3 now). So, SD14 and post processing can do much better today.

sergifoto

hairexample I found on Carls site:

DaSigmaGuy Forum Pro • Posts: 12,308
Re: Resolution versus detail......

John Sheehy wrote:

Lin Evans wrote:

Sorry John,

I left my crystal ball at the office. I didn't design the Canon jpg
conversion....

You don't need a crystal ball to see bad processing of RAW data.

I can't tell from your postage stamp post........

It's a 100% crop. It's small because it is only a fraction of the
entire image, but contains ALL of the area in which your particular
critique, which I am replying to, refers.

No, the BS is coming from the peanut gallery - you seem always to
have an opinion based on what? Your extensive experience with the
Foveon processor?

I don't have to handle one to see what it does; the only
user-controlled parameters are choice of subject and exposure, which
are not the topic here.

Which part of greater color resolution uniformity don't you
understand??

Which part of "I wasn't talking about that" don't you understand?
Regardless; it is a difference in conversion style, as anyone who
knows anything knows. The sky is not blown out in the 50D RAW, and
even if it were, it would be something the user should know when
using the camera and adjust for.

Which part of better dynamic range don't you understand?

The 50D has much better DR than the SD14. Stop kidding yourself.
SD14 shadows are almost unusable because of the blotchy blue/green
noise. I've seen it in black hair at ISO 100.

Thats only when the image is underexposed.
End of thread!

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