Bayer - Foveon comparison

Started Nov 23, 2008 | Discussions
Lin Evans
Lin Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 17,593
Re: Even with the disadvantage....

I noticed that and it doesn't seem to be so on the original. I have a magnifying mouse and used that plus the forum "zoom" to check the original and it plainly has the chain link at that location. Something in the interpolation seems to have removed it. The interpolation was done with S-Spline XL and with Catmull-Rom so one or the other seems to have decided to smear at that particular location.

I'll run it through again and see if it persists.

Lin

miketuthill Veteran Member • Posts: 3,228
Re: Inferiority Complex

DMillier wrote:

How about this for something to consider: there are apparently
several million posts on DPR therefore there is always something to
read; if the repetitious posts were removed there would be about 6
posts left....

;- )

Yeah that's probably not too far from the truth:-(

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Chunsum J Choi Veteran Member • Posts: 8,432
Wow...

posts like this never fail to strike a flame.

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Lin Evans
Lin Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 17,593
Correction....

That area of detail "is" missing on the original. I've converted it with SPP 4 and 2.3 and it's missing on each. I was looking at one of the other conversions on the web and the detail from that area was detected. Very strange..... Possibly a hot pixel area on the original capture or even a spot on the lens but that doesn't explain why the detail is visible on another conversion unless I have accidentally mistake one of the Canon conversion for the SD14 - possible....

Best regards,

Lin

Lin Evans wrote:

I noticed that and it doesn't seem to be so on the original. I have a
magnifying mouse and used that plus the forum "zoom" to check the
original and it plainly has the chain link at that location.
Something in the interpolation seems to have removed it. The
interpolation was done with S-Spline XL and with Catmull-Rom so one
or the other seems to have decided to smear at that particular
location.

I'll run it through again and see if it persists.

Lin

miketuthill Veteran Member • Posts: 3,228
Re: Wow...

And enough comments like this and it'll get to 150 in no time!:-)

Chunsum J Choi wrote:

posts like this never fail to strike a flame.

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LMC54 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,808
Re: Wow...

LOL it's the never ending story. Kinda like trapped in the Twilight Zone. All kind of wit, facts and figures and all equates to less than zero. rofl.

Regards,
Larry

I hope you knee is doing fine.

Chunsum J Choi wrote:

posts like this never fail to strike a flame.

Peter A. Stavrakoglou Veteran Member • Posts: 7,956
Re: What I see.

Richard wrote:

Lin Evans wrote:

Hi Richard,

Just a couple observations. First, if you are going to discuss the
sensors at least know enough about them to spell the name "Foveon"
correctly.

True, to me Faveon was not a real big deal so it was not important
for me to learn how to spell it.

One more time - it's f-O-v-e-o-n.

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John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 21,894
Re: Resolution versus detail......

Lin Evans wrote:

Does aliasing play a role? Undoubtedly. But with the SD14 capture I
can absolutely determine that on the right side of the image there is
chain-link fencing. I would only know this from the 50D capture
because of a small amount of visible hint along the top of the chain
link frame. Likewise with the detail on the welded seam on the huge
wheel. It's hardly discernable in the 50D capture but rather obvious
in the SD14.

What utter nonsense. Seriously; with all the expertise that you claim to have, how you can look at the 50D image and NOT recognize that it either has heavy JPEG compression, and or noise or moire reduction applied without constraint?

Here's what the 50D looks like, out of DPP:

Now, which has both more resolution and detail?

"Resolution" and "detail" are just the metric abstraction and the practical consequence of the same underlying phenomena.

I suspect that the greater color resolution uniformity of the SD14
plays a role here and perhaps better dynamic range even thought the
50D has very good DR. The differences are quite apparent to me.
Better resolution from the 50D, more revealed detail from the SD14.

Bee Ess.

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John

John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 21,894
Re: Resolution versus detail......

oluv wrote:

indeed the AA filter in the 50D seems to be stronger then in the 40D
for example. no idea why canon decided to have it that way, but i
prefer some artefacts over blurred details to tell the truth.

The AA filter in the 50D is weaker, relative to pixel pitch, than the 40D's, even more weak in absolute area of spread.

The 450D and the 50D brought on a new level of weaker AA. Sometimes, it results in fine artifacts with sharp lenses. To fix it, I would like higher pixel density; not a stronger AA filter.

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John

drgibson New Member • Posts: 16
Bayer - Foveon - Question on "how to" Making Bayer results look like Foveon

Forum Sigma SLR Talk
Subject Re: Bayer - Foveon comparison
Posted by jtra [CLICK FOR PROFILE]
Date/Time 21:05:43, 24 November 2008 (GMT)

Arky wrote:

Feel free to download, modify, print, crop, re-post and point out the
obvious deficiencies of these comparison images.

So I did. I tried to match color profile of the Foveon image with the Canon image.

Jtra -

It looked quite nice. The math of how you did it is interesting. But I am a relative
novice to digital software.

1st Question - Did you use lightroom, Photoshop, GIMP or whatever ?

2nd Question - I am relatively poor, do you know a way to do this in GIMP or in iPhoto?

or 3rd - Could you give a more detailed explanation of what the terms mean and how you used them so that I could figure out for myself how to do this in GIMP ?

Thank you for you consideration. If you do not have the time for a more detailed explanation I will understand. Life is crowded.

Have a nice day, and thanks again for the example.
David

Lin Evans
Lin Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 17,593
Re: Resolution versus detail......

John Sheehy wrote:

Lin Evans wrote:

Does aliasing play a role? Undoubtedly. But with the SD14 capture I
can absolutely determine that on the right side of the image there is
chain-link fencing. I would only know this from the 50D capture
because of a small amount of visible hint along the top of the chain
link frame. Likewise with the detail on the welded seam on the huge
wheel. It's hardly discernable in the 50D capture but rather obvious
in the SD14.

What utter nonsense. Seriously; with all the expertise that you claim
to have, how you can look at the 50D image and NOT recognize that
it either has heavy JPEG compression, and or noise or moire reduction
applied without constraint?

Sorry John,

I left my crystal ball at the office. I didn't design the Canon jpg conversion....

Here's what the 50D looks like, out of DPP:

I can't tell from your postage stamp post........

Now, which has both more resolution and detail?

"Resolution" and "detail" are just the metric abstraction and the
practical consequence of the same underlying phenomena.

I suspect that the greater color resolution uniformity of the SD14
plays a role here and perhaps better dynamic range even thought the
50D has very good DR. The differences are quite apparent to me.
Better resolution from the 50D, more revealed detail from the SD14.

Bee Ess.

No, the BS is coming from the peanut gallery - you seem always to have an opinion based on what? Your extensive experience with the Foveon processor?

Which part of greater color resolution uniformity don't you understand?? Which part of better dynamic range don't you understand? I see greater shadow detail in the SD14 conversion than in the 50D conversion and I don't see blown highlights. That says greater dynamic range to me....

Let me hold the mirror for you to see the "Bee Ess" - LOL

Lin

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John

alisD Contributing Member • Posts: 627
A beautiful

looking place, but completely pointless exercise. just enjoy what you have.

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my makeshift collection of photographs:

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/nome_alice/

John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 21,894
Re: Even with the disadvantage....

Lin Evans wrote:

That "unresolved" bird is a problem - LOL...

Actually, if you use the proper interpolation process you can also
count the wire-meshes on top of the ladder and they are resolved as
single wires. Here's a sample interpolated for an A0 sized print
( 44"x30").

Yes, the resolution is better on the 50D images, no argument there
but the SD14 indeed resolves to the single pixel level.

The gull apparently votes for the 50D, for both resolution AND detail:

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John

Chunsum J Choi Veteran Member • Posts: 8,432
Re: Wow...

Ground Hog's Day.

and the knee is doing fine Larry. Thanks.

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Chunsum J Choi Veteran Member • Posts: 8,432
Re: Wow...

haha

exactly Mike, plus it was getting a bit hostile. I figure I can lighten things up a ittle.

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Donald Ferguson Contributing Member • Posts: 809
Re: Even with the disadvantage....

Hello

I guess the Gull didn't realize he or she was supposed to stick around while the photographer changed cameras and how confusing this dissapearance would be for some people!
Don

PavelAKACert Regular Member • Posts: 186
Re: Even with the disadvantage....

At least it didn't sit somewhere else. Can you imagine the discussion which camera resolved the bird on the right place? :))

This is kind of IQ test one would think that even slightly retarded person has to pass almost instantly. This is the reason why fascism is the real power in so called western democracies and thus the proof that human kind is definitely determined for extinction. It's sooo easy to manipulate people that can read, write or even use computer but have zero analytic thinking. Just let them watch TV and vote...

cert

P.S.: Sorry for political lecture but this threat is pointless anyway...

Donald Ferguson wrote:

Hello
I guess the Gull didn't realize he or she was supposed to stick
around while the photographer changed cameras and how confusing this
dissapearance would be for some people!
Don

DMillier Forum Pro • Posts: 21,153
Re: Resolution versus detail......

I'd be careful about the DR claim. It may be true, but images like this are too uncontrolled to use as evidence. It only need a slight difference in exposure or a slight change in lighting or processing to overturn the small apparent difference. Better tests are needed to determine that one.

Lin Evans wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

Lin Evans wrote:

Does aliasing play a role? Undoubtedly. But with the SD14 capture I
can absolutely determine that on the right side of the image there is
chain-link fencing. I would only know this from the 50D capture
because of a small amount of visible hint along the top of the chain
link frame. Likewise with the detail on the welded seam on the huge
wheel. It's hardly discernable in the 50D capture but rather obvious
in the SD14.

What utter nonsense. Seriously; with all the expertise that you claim
to have, how you can look at the 50D image and NOT recognize that
it either has heavy JPEG compression, and or noise or moire reduction
applied without constraint?

Sorry John,

I left my crystal ball at the office. I didn't design the Canon jpg
conversion....

Here's what the 50D looks like, out of DPP:

I can't tell from your postage stamp post........

Now, which has both more resolution and detail?

"Resolution" and "detail" are just the metric abstraction and the
practical consequence of the same underlying phenomena.

I suspect that the greater color resolution uniformity of the SD14
plays a role here and perhaps better dynamic range even thought the
50D has very good DR. The differences are quite apparent to me.
Better resolution from the 50D, more revealed detail from the SD14.

Bee Ess.

No, the BS is coming from the peanut gallery - you seem always to
have an opinion based on what? Your extensive experience with the
Foveon processor?
Which part of greater color resolution uniformity don't you
understand?? Which part of better dynamic range don't you understand?
I see greater shadow detail in the SD14 conversion than in the 50D
conversion and I don't see blown highlights. That says greater
dynamic range to me....

Let me hold the mirror for you to see the "Bee Ess" - LOL

Lin

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sergifotocat Regular Member • Posts: 359
Re: Even with the disadvantage....

Hi,

I have download and processed the SD14 raw file with SPP and upsized to match 50D size using PhotoZoomPro 2, and finally cropped the same part of the raw processed 50D image that was posted before. Here's the crop 100% (upsized to match 50D):

And the 50D raw image crop posted before:

What do you think?... My opinion is that SD14 is not a 15MP camera, of course, but not so bad for a 4.6MP camera comparing to a 15MP camera raw image, isn't it?

sergifotocat

Jaelkay Senior Member • Posts: 2,243
Re: Be careful what you ask for

Adam-T wrote:

otherwise you MAY get it ......

Most if not all of Sigma's standard zooms aren't pretty on full frame
unless Heavily stopped down, the edges on the likes of the 24-60,
24-70 and 28-70 EX DG Macros don't get reasonable until F8 or smaller
is achieved and the typical Sigma sample variation omn these lenses
means that you'll be trawling through crates of the things to find
one which is any good full stop - the wider EX primes are just as
bad or worse on FF (the 24 F1.8 EX needs F16 and the 14mm never makes
it) .. Unless Sigma plan on using the EOS mount or even Nikon so you
can use their glass, I really hope they avoid full frame like the
plague ..

I agree with you totally, Adam.

I recently purchased a Sigma 24-70 f2.8 to use on my Nikon D700. The centres, at all apertures, were very sharp, but move away from the middle third of the image at apertures greater than f8 and the edges fell to pieces.

I was being a cheapskate in hoping the Sigma would save me having to buy the Nikkor 24-70. Didn't work as I'd hoped, I'm afraid.

JK

What they would benefit from is using a 1.5X crop as all their APS
lenses handle that crop factor and it gives a bit more real estate.

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