The REAL scoop on MX!

Started Nov 9, 2008 | Discussions
Luke Kaven Veteran Member • Posts: 5,715
Re: DPReview is Entertainment - reader beware

To put things in perspective, keep in mind that thousands of people have seen your post, and I'd wager that most of those accept it at face value. Out of the handful of people who want to push your buttons, most are well known for treating this forum as a blood sport. You can walk proud.

Luke Kaven Veteran Member • Posts: 5,715
Re: Ocham's razor...

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

Luke Kaven wrote:

Inductively drawing the conclusion that the OP is a liar is
inappropriate.

True.

It is also inappropriate to say that is what I did.

I stated "that the most likely theories are the ones containing the
fewest assumptions."

And pointed out that the theory that the OP made this all up requires
fewer assumptions than any other theory presented.

Inductive reasoning, since it is not backed up by logical necessity, usually does rest on judgments about likelihood or projectibility or assertability. So I think what you said was in fact drawing a conclusion to the extent that induction would allow.

Moral consequences come into play in judgments about appropriateness. Imagine if someone posted a message here that said "I just got off the phone with Nikon service, and the girl told me that Nikon was filing for Chapter Eleven tomorrow morning." Then I would expect you to pull out the Ockham's Franciscan Army Knife (tm) right away as well as perhaps drop a dime to call the feds.

Matthew Stone Regular Member • Posts: 148
Re: DPReview is Entertainment - reader beware

It amazes me why people would go out of their way to act like jerks when an individual is posting info that they believe came upon from (what would be likely considered) a credible source.

A bunch of you guys need to take a chill pill and learn some manners. It is easy to debate the validity of a post and not act like a jerk in the process. It is also possible to strongly object to something that someone posts without attacking them personally. In the last 2 years I have been reading DP Review, folks seem to be getting more and more agressive in the way that they post.. why?? No one forces you to respond. If you disagree with what someone says and cant control you emotions in a civil manner, please simply avoid the topic and lessen the drama we have to endure.

As far as I am concerned, I am glad folks post info like this because it gives us an chance to see what Nikon may have up their sleeves.

To the OP.. Thanks for your post. IF she was close to correct we could be in store for quite a 2009 for us Nikon gearheads. Admittedly 3k seems low price wise, but I am hoping whatever they introduce will still has a 5:4 crop in it. I myself have been waiting to pull the trigger on a D3 in anticipation of a new High Rez body . If that happens it will work in my favor as I could snag one and also pull in a D3 at a lower cost as well (I hope).

Does anyone remember the buffer upgrade Nikon offered for what 500.00? It doubled in size didn't it(The cam buffer)? Hmmm.. Double the pixel count and increase the buffer seems to make some sense doesn't it

It also seems that both Thom and Jeff-C have been quiet as of recent regarding any specifics on this, which to me lends itself to the credibility of a release soon. Maybe I am wrong, but there seems to be a correlation between the specific comments they make and releases. I for one enjoy reading the posts of both and the lively debates that follow (Which are always well thought out and respectful of the fellow members of this board)

Whatever we get will surely be up to the "Nikon Standard" so we will all be winnders in the end. one other thing.. I wonder where the UP300x fits into all of this..

Matthew Stone

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jk Veteran Member • Posts: 3,283
i would love to do luch with her

and maybe dinner too oh and maybe even an after dinner "dessert"

dchphoto wrote:

haha. yes as I said, I'm sure she is wrong on the price.

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RKGoth Senior Member • Posts: 1,141
Re: power, viewfinder, etc. requirements...

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

RKGoth wrote:

Not buying it. If the sensor is larger than FF, then the power
requirements,

May actually decrease. Sensor power increases with mp count, but
given the same mp count and equivalent technology, it actually
decreases slightly with increased size. In any case, the sensor is
only about 1-5% of the power requirement of the typical camera: the
display backlight typically draws over 20x as much power as the
sensor.

I'm more considering the need for greater processor power, larger memories, faster bus speeds. And we already "know" the proposal is for a greater pixel count, since the crop modes are alleged to be "as good as current DSLRS".

viewfinder requirements (no pro is going to want an EVF
on a > FF sensor camera),

Why not? An EVF lets you...

1) instantly zoom in on any area of the image to check focus or
examine a detail: a boon for product, fine art repro, macro,
landscape, and architecture photographers. It's really amazing how
much easier that makes using a tilt/shift lens. Wonderful for
portrait photography, too, if your subject is even mildly
cooperative...

2) instantly preview depth of field, something you just can't do on
an SLR.

EVF requires power, EVF requires resolution to be sharp, etc. Also, I personally like LiveView - on a large screen - for the composition you're talking about. Maybe if you make a waist-level tiltable LCD... but not an eyepiece with an EVF. I don't find them comfortable at all.

Why? Assuming the MX doesn't need to blast away at 9 frames/sec, the
existing D3 processor can just as easily run a 3 frame/sec 36mp
camera.

Until the buffer is full. Which would be after 4-5 frames. And then it would need to clear the buffer. ZDs have that sort of limitation.

The Mamiya ZD was immense for a DSLR, though
still "comparable" with the D3.

And most of that was pentaprism.

Well, it would be, if the D3 didn't also include a grip. Compare the ZD to the D700.

Unless Nikon are going to pitch up against the Leica S2, which I
think would be madness (the S2 already - to me - looks like a very
curious choice when the same money will get you an H3DII-31 or 39)

I don't see much future for "spork" format cameras like S2 at
30x45mm, or the new "Mamiya" at 33x44mm. Those are only 27% bigger
than FF. One thing I learnedover the years, if you're not going to go
up by at least a stop (41%, square root of two) don't even bother.
That's basically one full paper size larger, or double the pixels.
The 37x49mm (like that H3DII 39 you mentioned) are one stop up from
FF.

Agreed.

I
can't see them bothering to move out of the 35mm market unless they
were going to launch something like a digital "rangefinder"
equivalent, like the G1 but true 35mm or similar.

That would be interesting.

What if the BIG announcement is a FF or APS compact?

An APS compact with the D300 sensor in a G1-esque body? NOW you have my attention I'll live with the EVF for that combination. FF? Even better.

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Thom Hogan Forum Pro • Posts: 13,659
Re: Clever marketting?

Nakiphoto wrote:

How about it being a deliberate leak?

For it to be a deliberate "leak" it would have to first be accurate ; )

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Bernard Languillier Veteran Member • Posts: 4,672
Thanks

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

Bernard Languillier wrote:

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

3. New lens line but will work with older ff lenses.

Do you think the new camera is going to be a pure EVF (or EVIL:
Electronic Viewfinder, Interchangeable Lens) camera without an SLR
optical viewfinder?

The back focus (minimum distance between rear element and sensor) for
FX is 39mm. That was determined 5 decades ago by the arc the mirror
made when it swings.

For an SLR, making the sensor larger means making the mirror bigger,
which means increasing the back focus.

The only way to make this work is to do like Panasonic did with Micro
Four Thirds, do away with the SLR mirror. Personally, I'm ready for
this, but I don't think the camera buying public is...

  • What if the mirror doesn't move? Canon used to make a super fast

body with a pellicular mirror,

Canon made at least three variations. I have one in my collection.
Nikon made one, also. I do not have one of those.

If you're proposing the pellicle mirror because you believe that pros
will not like the EVF, I'd counter with the pellicle being so much
worse than the EVF it's really not a valid solution.

1) Pellicle mirrors are close to the sensor at the top edge. So they
bring dirt into sharp focus, especially when you stop down (just as
sensor dirt becomes more visible at small apertures).

2) They let light into the camera through the eyepiece. They were
only suitable for applications where you have the camera to your eye,
and you're using large apertures so the ratio of viewfinder light to
lens light remained low. Stop down to f22, and the viewfinder
dominates. You'd need a fast electrically driven eyepiece shutter.

3) They are too thick. The Pellix used a 20 micron film. That was
fine when your concern was shooting sports with pushed Tri-X for
newspaper reproduction. But on digital, 20 microns puts the rear
surface ghost reflection two whole pixel widths away from the main
image. You'll see ghosts...

4) They get dirty easily, and are near impossible to clean. They're
not like a sensor, which is usually vertical, so gravity keeps a lot
of stuff from sticking. They're slanted at 45 degrees, so they pick
up everything.

5) They are fragile. The sensor cover glass is, well, glass: 7 moh
hard, can be cleaned with a spatula covered with a wet pad. I'd say
that most photographers lack the skills to clean a pellicle mirror,
and a good percentage lack the physical dexterity to not poke their
cleaning tool right through it, or press it hard enough to stretch it.

6) They consume a great deal of light. The Canon mix, if I recall,
was 30% reflective, which made the viewfinder two full stops dimmer
than a non-pellicle camera.

7) They rot. It's unusual to find an old Canon Pellix with the mirror
reasonably intact.

8) For an AF camera, you still need a "popup" secondary mirror for
the AF system. On a "conventional" SLR, the secondary mirror is as
large as possible, because it anchors to the main mirror. A pellicle
camera requires a smaller mirror, because it has to keep well clear
of the pellicle.

9) Any lens that moves the rear elements when focusing or zooming
temporarily deforms the pellicle until the camera vents enough to
equalize pressure. That vent will suck in water, making a
weatherproof camera difficult, and making it more vulnerable to water
infiltration than a non-vented camera.

Thanks for the feedback Joseph.

A very similar conversation must have taken place a few years back in a Nikon R&D center office... we might find out on the 20th whether Nikon engineers went this way or not, and whether they found some solutions to the valid issues you list up.

There are other options besides pellicular mirror that reduce the space used by the mirror box also

Cheers,
Bernard

jk Veteran Member • Posts: 3,283
doesnt make sense the date

even if its true the 20th would be on thursday i think and i cant recall when manufacturers have made press releases right be4 a weekend if anything on a monday tuesday or wednesday makes more sense
--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

Bernard Languillier Veteran Member • Posts: 4,672
Don't think so

RKGoth wrote:

Bernard Languillier wrote:

  • Nikon has been running behind the 35 mm competition in terms of

perceived high end, and it will be hard for them to release something
that really differentiates them from the compeition -> they need a
paradigm shift.

They've already done that - the D3's performance and their aggressive
marketing and product strategy have seen them massively increase
their market share for pro cameras.

They have walked a few steps in the right direction, but mega pixel count remains the key metrics in most people's mind. According to that one, they are currently only half as good, and even if they catch up today they will have been one year behind which will enable Canon to move ahead again within one year or so... they are de facto accepting to be behind the curve 50% of the time or more for years to come. It doesn't look like a smart strategy for an ambitious company.

Anyway you look at it, Nikon does have any choice, they HAVE to go MF.

The only reason Nikon would have to go MF is if Canon did.

I have just listed 6 very good reasons why Nikon would want to do it even if Canon doesn't.

And MF has
not been an area which is going to see massive growth; the ZD
actually represented a simple, easy to use camera for the MF market.
Even if it had been equipped with something better than the Dalsa
22Mp sensor, it would have flopped (as it did). I used one, lovely
machine, dog slow and useless over 160 ISO - but the movement
required to bring that camera into "prosumer" expectations of
performance would be immense.

The only NO problem area of the ZD is its sensor that is amazing IMHO (except for its long exposure limitations). Low ISO is not a problem for these applications. All the rest is way behind what Nikon can do and also mostly behind the competition.

Besides, Mamiya did a few key mistakes in speccing the ZD, the most obvious one being the bit depth of their processing pipe. This has zero influence on the performance from what I could tell, but it was used by competition as a key differentiator of solutions costing twice more.

I don't believe that the ZD was a commercial failure, but better execution (bit depth issue, SOP delay,...) would have made it a huge success.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the potential is there and that Nikon has the potential to make is amazingly it right. The only question really is whether Nikon board had the nerves to do it or not.

People don't want to spend £2,000+ on ordinary glass. People don't
want to spend £7,000+ on their bodies. If they do, they want
something flexible with a very long useful life, so they want a
system with upgradeable backs.

Who is saying that an MX body would target ordinary shooters?

The price of the body is not relevant in the current MFDB world. The body is essentially given away for free with the back.

The only value of the modular approach is the ability to use the back with a large format type camera with movements. This is the only aspect that would perhaps make me hesitate between the Nikon MX and a more expensive solution from the Hassy, Phaseone or Leaf.

Much as I'd like to see a digital Fujica 645, it's not going to
happen. The processing requirements for that sort of image size
require more space for cooling, more space for the battery and more
space for RAM.

Who cares about RAM nowadays. You can get 32GB for a Mac pro for about 1500 US$, that is a non issue.

Besides the target folks for the MX do either already shoot another back, scan MF/LF already (with much larger files still) or stitch.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard Languillier Veteran Member • Posts: 4,672
Re: The REAL scoop on MX!

RKGoth wrote:

I own both, they are about exactly the same size and weight. Nikon
being much better than Mamiya at designing advanced electronic
devices, I am confident that they could roughly stick to a D3 like
size and include a MF sensor.

Mamiya's camera was designed in 2004 and previewed in 2005. Nikon's
advantages are in speed to bring to market, not necessarily design
(which will have been largely done by Dalsa, I am sure).

I am not talking about the sensor here, but about all the other aspects of the camera.

But as a ZD owner - how much do you use it compared to your D3?

I use the D3 more because it is a much more agile camera. In terms of pure image quality the ZD is significantly ahead obviously (both DR, resolution,...)

And
if the D3 had existed at the same time as the ZD's launch, with the
budget for just one, which would you have chosen?

I am not sure why you are coming up with this budget constraint here. Most target buyers of an MX camera can afford to spend 10.000 US$ on a body if it meets their performance needs.

If the ZD had had comparable abilities to the D3 in the non-sensor domains, I would buy a ZD again.

I loved the ZD when
I first got my hands on one because it was the first time I'd see
that fantastic DoF since putting down my MF film cameras - but then
the speed and noise of the system made the reality of it less than
impressive. (I want a FF Foveon camera more than anything else).

You would probably be similarly disapointed with offerings from the other vendors. The current breed of MF offerings are low ISO only, but this is not a problem at all for most of their users.

Here also, I am sure that Nikon could easily solve both the ISO and speed issues with an MX body.

Cheers,
Bernard

M Lammerse
M Lammerse Forum Pro • Posts: 11,500
Re: DPReview is Entertainment - reader beware

Hi Matthew,

Matthew Stone wrote:

It amazes me why people would go out of their way to act like jerks
when an individual is posting info that they believe came upon from
(what would be likely considered) a credible source.

I can tell you for 100% it is not By that I mean the info

I'm under KYMS but I would people ask to not think too much of this specific info Otherwise the 20th will be a huge disapointment in relation to THIS post

A bunch of you guys need to take a chill pill and learn some manners.
It is easy to debate the validity of a post and not act like a jerk
in the process.

The excitement is getting too high for some people I guess...20th is coming closer...

As far as I am concerned, I am glad folks post info like this because
it gives us an chance to see what Nikon may have up their sleeves.

Me too!
This forum should be fun, and it really is sometimes.

Does anyone remember the buffer upgrade Nikon offered for what
500.00? It doubled in size didn't it(The cam buffer)? Hmmm.. Double
the pixel count and increase the buffer seems to make some sense
doesn't it

Bufffer does, pixel count doesn't... Again in relation to the details mentioned in the OP's post.

It also seems that both Thom and Jeff-C have been quiet as of recent
regarding any specifics on this, which to me lends itself to the
credibility of a release soon.

Well I'm allowed to say that the release is beginning of next year

Maybe I am wrong, but there seems to

be a correlation between the specific comments they make and
releases.

Oh really? I've not noticed it..maybe I should put my focus more on the serious parts of the ehm niews items at this forum

I for one enjoy reading the posts of both and the lively

debates that follow (Which are always well thought out and respectful
of the fellow members of this board)

One thing i enjoy is the cameras' Nikon is making. I was standing today in nasty dutch weather with lots of rain and hard wind for a couple of hours. I forgot to bring camera rain covers, no problem for both tihs lens and camera.

The forum is just plain fun with the exception of people like Illah Borg and several others. Lately i'm too busy with work, so I can't follow all the latest ehm hot toll free number news...directly on my laptoppy

Whatever we get will surely be up to the "Nikon Standard" so we will
all be winnders in the end.

Well actually it is, indeed! For all of us Nikon users...see that last part as a fact

Michel

~ Disclaimer: Posts written by me are my views, ideas and opinions only, and should not be taken as facts, unless stated otherwise. ~
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Thom Hogan Forum Pro • Posts: 13,659
Re: DPReview is Entertainment - reader beware

Matthew Stone wrote:

It also seems that both Thom and Jeff-C have been quiet as of recent
regarding any specifics on this, which to me lends itself to the
credibility of a release soon.

I believe Jeff-C and I are both on record as saying the next release from Nikon will be FX.

People have to careful of accepting a full list of assertions as true just because one aspect of it (a date) seems to coincide with a data point that seems likely and partially verified from other sources.

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Matthew Stone Regular Member • Posts: 148
Re: DPReview is Entertainment - reader beware

Michel.

you crack me up

Ok, so I'll douse my hopes a little bit for the 20th of November but keep the fire burning for end of the year.

That said as usual you have me wondering again what you know and we don't

Matthew Stone

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Jost von Allmen Forum Member • Posts: 66
Re: doesnt make sense the date

Aren't we all waiting - and some people obviously are even desperate - for a new Nikon Pro camera with high pixel count?

As for me, Nikon was quite smart not to introduce at Photokina whatever is coming on the 20th: they will get a lot more attention now, not beeing amongst many others with exciting new products!

Summing up all the details and so called facts that I come across in several forums and threads here, too, I expect a Nikon D4 (or whatever it's called) with an adapted (optimized) version of the Sony 24MP sensor in a similar body as the D3, which I actually really like.
They already made the buffer ready for 5 frames/sec at 24MP!

I certainly expect Nikon to do a lot of research and even produce some prototype parts for possibly larger sensor sizes, but I cannot image them beeing able to develop a whole system (including several pro lenses, like Leica is doing now) within a relatively short time.
Nikon is still very busy optimizing DX and FX cameras and lenses.

I expect some nice, fast primes, optimized for the new FX-sensor on the 20th as well: How about 1,4/24mm, 1,4/35mm and 1,4/85mm?
The new camera and these lenses would satisfy a lot of us.

Later on in 2009 (summer), how about a similar thing happening as with the D700: Same 24MP sensor in a smaller body!?

And let's not forget the updated versions of the 80-400AF and possibly also the 2,8/70-200.

I really think this forum can be good fun, I like to watch your images, too.
So let's not forget about this instead of getting aggressive...

Good light and good luck
--
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'My whole world is a latent image' (by D. Munch)

jk Veteran Member • Posts: 3,283
Re: doesnt make sense the date

i agree but i still think it will be announced earlish in the week rather than later

Jost von Allmen wrote:

Aren't we all waiting - and some people obviously are even desperate

  • for a new Nikon Pro camera with high pixel count?

As for me, Nikon was quite smart not to introduce at Photokina
whatever is coming on the 20th: they will get a lot more attention
now, not beeing amongst many others with exciting new products!

Summing up all the details and so called facts that I come across in
several forums and threads here, too, I expect a Nikon D4 (or
whatever it's called) with an adapted (optimized) version of the Sony
24MP sensor in a similar body as the D3, which I actually really like.
They already made the buffer ready for 5 frames/sec at 24MP!

I certainly expect Nikon to do a lot of research and even produce
some prototype parts for possibly larger sensor sizes, but I cannot
image them beeing able to develop a whole system (including several
pro lenses, like Leica is doing now) within a relatively short time.
Nikon is still very busy optimizing DX and FX cameras and lenses.

I expect some nice, fast primes, optimized for the new FX-sensor on
the 20th as well: How about 1,4/24mm, 1,4/35mm and 1,4/85mm?
The new camera and these lenses would satisfy a lot of us.

Later on in 2009 (summer), how about a similar thing happening as
with the D700: Same 24MP sensor in a smaller body!?
And let's not forget the updated versions of the 80-400AF and
possibly also the 2,8/70-200.

I really think this forum can be good fun, I like to watch your
images, too.
So let's not forget about this instead of getting aggressive...

Good light and good luck
--
http://www.jostvonallmen.com

'My whole world is a latent image' (by D. Munch)

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beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

OP dchphoto Regular Member • Posts: 381
Re: DPReview is Entertainment - reader beware

Thom Hogan wrote:

Matthew Stone wrote:

It also seems that both Thom and Jeff-C have been quiet as of recent
regarding any specifics on this, which to me lends itself to the
credibility of a release soon.

I believe Jeff-C and I are both on record as saying the next release
from Nikon will be FX.

This would be great news to me as I want a higher mp fx camera, not MX. I hope the girl is wrong for whatever reason IF instead we get a high mp fx camera announced on the 20th. If not, d700 here I come.

Boris Macek New Member • Posts: 2
Re: doesnt make sense the date

she is definitely wrong on price and shipping date... but for the rest - i mean, they announced something BIG, didn't they?

and if i was the marketing guy at nikon, i for sure would spread some rumors around a few days ahead of an announcement. like this you can be sure everyone interested in a new camera is watching nikon.com the 20th. the best ad for no cost at all... (if the site isn't going down again due to high traffic...)

personally i think they will announce and almost immidiatly ship a D3x (D3 with higher mp). and probably they will announce the MF to be shipped in spring.

thanks to dchphoto for sharing his info with us! even if this rumour turns out to be busted it was nice to read all these messages!

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Nakiphoto Contributing Member • Posts: 575
Re: Clever marketting?

Thom Hogan wrote:

Nakiphoto wrote:

How about it being a deliberate leak?

For it to be a deliberate "leak" it would have to first be accurate ; )

Actually, I was just playing devil's advocate!! :-))

mgblack74
mgblack74 Senior Member • Posts: 1,678
Mis-information

It could be an elaborate scheme of mis-information. Rather than trying to stop momentum of the MX rumour (think U.S. Football), Nikon could be using the rumour's energy (think Rugby) to bring itself (the rumour that is) down. "Note to all employees world wide... when asked by customers about a so called "MX format", please provide the following information...." This seems out of character for Nikon employees to be so free wheeling with information. This is not even an evolutionary camera body, this could be revolutionary. It seems doubtful that Nikon service reps would avow any knowledge. Unless of course, they have given their 2 weeks notice and are going down in a blaze of glory, but I doubt it. I guess we'll find out November 20th or in February!
--
Ancient Canadian proverb: 'Don't eat yellow snow.'
D300 and assortment from FE to 200mm

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M Lammerse
M Lammerse Forum Pro • Posts: 11,500
Re: DPReview is Entertainment - reader beware

Just I like to say do not have too high expections what to expect in relation to MF

Michel

Matthew Stone wrote:

Michel.

you crack me up

Ok, so I'll douse my hopes a little bit for the 20th of November but
keep the fire burning for end of the year.

That said as usual you have me wondering again what you know and we
don't

Matthew Stone

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~ Light is eveything ~

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http://www.pbase.com/photopropaganda

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