Call for DNG support from camera manufacturers Locked

Started Nov 8, 2008 | Discussions
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ted w dillard Regular Member • Posts: 194
Call for DNG support from camera manufacturers

I've been lurking on the forum for years... sorry I haven't made much of a contribution, but I wanted to throw this out there, for what it's worth.

I've tossed together a petition to send a message to camera makers to support the DNG file format, and Adobe's efforts to offer this as a universal, open format. It's not going to change the world as we know it, but maybe it can help the DNG efforts. It just takes a second to sign it, and your personal information will stay personal.

I'd suggest if you're not current on DNG, you can read Adobe's site here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/
There's a great interview here, on DPR, with Tom Hogarty of Adobe:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0805/08051503adobeDNG.asp

...explaining some of the details and the current status of DNG and the ISO filing process.

And just to be clear, this petition is not about replacing the makers' RAW file format , it's about adding DNG to the shooting option (specifically Nikon and Canon). It's a start!

Here's the link:
http://www.petitiononline.com/dng01/petition.html

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Ted Dillard

Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support- http://www.teddillard.com

Join the Shoot RAW Smart! forum on Yahoo - dedicated to the Smart Object RAW workflow.
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ElevenSpecial New Member • Posts: 8
Re: Call for DNG support from camera manufacturers

Buy a Pentax

OP ted w dillard Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: Call for DNG support from camera manufacturers

exactly!

Pentax supports it's own RAW format as well as DNG, right? It will be interesting to see how much market share this camera gets, and how much of that is about the DNG format.

...one more step to getting Nikon and Canon to think of the industry!

(so sign it already... ha!)

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Ted Dillard

Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support- http://www.teddillard.com

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Barry Pearson
Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: Call for DNG support from camera manufacturers

ted w dillard wrote:

Here's the link:
http://www.petitiononline.com/dng01/petition.html

I've added that link to my own pages.
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/

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OP ted w dillard Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: Call for DNG support from camera manufacturers

thanks Barry! Likewise, I just linked your page on my site...

Ted

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Ted Dillard

Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support- http://www.teddillard.com

Join the Shoot RAW Smart! forum on Yahoo - dedicated to the Smart Object RAW workflow.
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cityphotographer Senior Member • Posts: 2,510
who's gonna handle the raws?

adobe?

hmmm

I'd rather count on canon or nikon for the raw support in the long run, given the fact that adobe has the tendency of selling a new software when a major model is about to hit the market

(d2x and 6D mark II for example: you need to upgrade in order to use the raws)

so thanks but no thanks

ted w dillard wrote:

I've been lurking on the forum for years... sorry I haven't made
much of a contribution, but I wanted to throw this out there, for
what it's worth.

I've tossed together a petition to send a message to camera makers to
support the DNG file format, and Adobe's efforts to offer this as a
universal, open format. It's not going to change the world as we
know it, but maybe it can help the DNG efforts. It just takes a
second to sign it, and your personal information will stay personal.

I'd suggest if you're not current on DNG, you can read Adobe's site
here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/
There's a great interview here, on DPR, with Tom Hogarty of Adobe:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0805/08051503adobeDNG.asp
...explaining some of the details and the current status of DNG and
the ISO filing process.

And just to be clear, this petition is not about replacing the
makers' RAW file format , it's about adding DNG to the shooting
option (specifically Nikon and Canon). It's a start!

Here's the link:
http://www.petitiononline.com/dng01/petition.html

OP ted w dillard Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: who's gonna handle the raws?

If your camera supports both formats, then the answer is both Adobe and Nikon/Canon, it is your choice. This petition is about including the format, not about excluding the makers format.

Ted

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Ted Dillard

Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support- http://www.teddillard.com

Join the Shoot RAW Smart! forum on Yahoo - dedicated to the Smart Object RAW workflow.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/shootrawsmart/

OP ted w dillard Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: who's gonna handle the raws?

Of course, the irony of your comment is, if you had the option to shoot DNG with either of the 2 cameras you mention, you'd be able to process them in any DNG supporting software, including CS3 or even CS2.

Ted
--
Ted Dillard

Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support- http://www.teddillard.com

Join the Shoot RAW Smart! forum on Yahoo - dedicated to the Smart Object RAW workflow.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/shootrawsmart/

Barry Pearson
Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: who's gonna handle the raws?

cityphotographer wrote:

I'd rather count on canon or nikon for the raw support in the long
run, given the fact that adobe has the tendency of selling a new
software when a major model is about to hit the market

DNG avoids the need to upgrade software in that way. For example, here is a page about using DNG to avoid upgrading from Photoshop CS (or CS2, etc) when new cameras are launched:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/ps_cs.htm

It is the changes to raw formats when Canon and Nikon (and others) launch new cameras that requires new software - all raw converters (even their own) need upgrades, whether paid for or not. DNG doesn't need to change like that.

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cityphotographer Senior Member • Posts: 2,510
that's something I'm not willing to kid around with

I shoot raw, only

the ability to open the files taht I'm shooting now and 10 years from now with a software that I can download without restrictions or stuff to buy or mandatory upgrades to buy and perform from the manufacturer is crucial (to me)

not a game for me, at all.

so you were saying about being ironic?

ted w dillard wrote:

Of course, the irony of your comment is, if you had the option to
shoot DNG with either of the 2 cameras you mention, you'd be able to
process them in any DNG supporting software, including CS3 or even
CS2.

Ted
--
Ted Dillard

Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support-
http://www.teddillard.com

Join the Shoot RAW Smart! forum on Yahoo - dedicated to the Smart
Object RAW workflow.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/shootrawsmart/

cityphotographer Senior Member • Posts: 2,510
yeah?

but you need an adobe product to do that

you still don't see the point?
and why I'm not willing to kid around about this?

Barry Pearson wrote:

cityphotographer wrote:

I'd rather count on canon or nikon for the raw support in the long
run, given the fact that adobe has the tendency of selling a new
software when a major model is about to hit the market

DNG avoids the need to upgrade software in that way. For example,
here is a page about using DNG to avoid upgrading from Photoshop CS
(or CS2, etc) when new cameras are launched:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/ps_cs.htm

It is the changes to raw formats when Canon and Nikon (and others)
launch new cameras that requires new software - all raw converters
(even their own) need upgrades, whether paid for or not. DNG doesn't
need to change like that.

OP ted w dillard Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: that's something I'm not willing to kid around with

sorry, who's kidding around? This is very serious, it's not a game, I'm sorry if I said something that implied that.

I stand by my point. If your camera shot DNG, those 10 years of files would be protected.

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Ted Dillard

Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support- http://www.teddillard.com

Join the Shoot RAW Smart! forum on Yahoo - dedicated to the Smart Object RAW workflow.
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OP ted w dillard Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: yeah?

One more time.

This petition is about including the format.

This would give you the option to use the camera files or the DNG file. Now, with only your camera files you are totally at the mercy of Canon. What here is giving Adobe control?

Sorry, what's not clear here?

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Ted Dillard

Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support- http://www.teddillard.com

Join the Shoot RAW Smart! forum on Yahoo - dedicated to the Smart Object RAW workflow.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/shootrawsmart/

cityphotographer Senior Member • Posts: 2,510
protected by

adobe?

you've got to be kidding me

I don't trust adobe just like I don't trust Canon but at least Canon includes the software and make it available for free (which means no agenda, about the software)

and since it's my production that we're discussing about if you don't mind I'd rather rely on the manufacturer.

if you don't have an agenda then a few seconds of your time and a little concentration will make it all clear. But if you have an agenda then don't expect discounts from me.

ted w dillard wrote:

sorry, who's kidding around? This is very serious, it's not a game,
I'm sorry if I said something that implied that.

I stand by my point. If your camera shot DNG, those 10 years of files
would be protected.

cityphotographer Senior Member • Posts: 2,510
one more time?

what is this?

can't you read?

I do not want to link my work to any adobe software , ever.

capisce?

one more time... I can't believe it.

who are you? do you work for adobe?

uh?

ted w dillard wrote:

One more time.

This petition is about including the format.

This would give you the option to use the camera files or the DNG
file. Now, with only your camera files you are totally at the mercy
of Canon. What here is giving Adobe control?

Sorry, what's not clear here?

Barry Pearson
Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: yeah?

cityphotographer wrote:

but you need an adobe product to do that

you still don't see the point?
and why I'm not willing to kid around about this?

Not true.

If the camera outputs DNG (whether as its only raw format or as an option) there is then no need to use ANY Adobe product.

For example, a Pentax user can currently set the camera to use DNG rather than PEF, and then use the Pentax software which can read those DNGs (as well as PEFs of course).

And there are 100s of other not-Adobe products that would be able to read the DNGs from Canons and Nikons.

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Barry Pearson
Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: one more time?

cityphotographer wrote:

what is this?

can't you read?

I do not want to link my work to any adobe software , ever.

As I just pointed out in another response, if Canon or Nikon cameras had an option to output DNG, you wouldn't need to use any Adobe software to process them.

Canon and Nikon would probably extend their software to be able to handle those DNGs as well as CR2s / NEFs. (That is what Pentax have done).

But there are 100s of other software products that accept DNGs. It is perfectly possible to use DNG without ever paying Adobe for any software.
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/products.htm

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Barry Pearson
Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: that's something I'm not willing to kid around with

cityphotographer wrote:

I shoot raw, only
the ability to open the files taht I'm shooting now and 10 years from
now with a software that I can download without restrictions or stuff
to buy or mandatory upgrades to buy and perform from the manufacturer
is crucial (to me)

Then DNG is ideal for your purpose.

There are no restrictions on who can develop software that uses DNG. It is the only genuine archival raw file format that currently exists. (Because it is openly specified).

DNG contains extra metadata that described the sensor configuration and characteristics in more detail that CR2s and NEFs do. (That is why users of DNG don't need to upgrade their raw converters for extra camera models). So your future software of choice doesn't have to recognise the camera model (D1234 or 5678D) then have a look-up table of the camera details.

The required camera details are in each DNG, so software can process DNGs from unfamiliar cameras.
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/profiles.htm
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/dng_not_native.htm
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/innovation.htm

This will avoid a problem that you may otherwise encounter in future. Someone may develop a new software product in years to come that has all the features you want, but doesn't support all historical cameras. It doesn't matter with DNG, because it isn't necessary for software to recognise the camera model in order to support the DNG. But software typically DOES need to recognise the camera model when reading NEFs and CR2s, because they don't contain all the metadata needed.

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OP ted w dillard Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: one more time?

"I do not want to link my work to any adobe software , ever."

then don't.

"who are you? do you work for adobe?"

Click my sig. link for the answer to that... and no, I don't work for Adobe. I shoot, I teach, and I write books. Right now, actually, I'm more interested in Smart Object RAW processing, (also an Adobe-specific process), and started revisiting DNG issues to address whether it would be wise to convert to DNG before working with the file as a Smart Object.

My agenda? To impress camera companies with the market value of offering this, to them, fairly insignificant and inexpensive feature.

Who are you?

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Ted Dillard

Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support- http://www.teddillard.com

Join the Shoot RAW Smart! forum on Yahoo - dedicated to the Smart Object RAW workflow.
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Mike_PEAT Forum Pro • Posts: 13,339
So you'd be at Adobe's mercy instead???

ted w dillard wrote:

One more time.

This petition is about including the format.

This would give you the option to use the camera files or the DNG
file. Now, with only your camera files you are totally at the mercy
of Canon.

So you're trading one proprietary format for another? It's not like Adobe has given away DNG to every software manufacturer like JPEG was.

Just look at the fiasco and complaints about CS4 and RAW support in the Open Talk forum.

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