S100fs blurred photo's help

Started Oct 27, 2008 | Discussions
Lloydy
Lloydy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,589
Ted ...

... Question ?

Is it really a case of f4 x 4 (crop factor) ? Does this also mean that a crop factor of 1.5 means you 'times' by 1.5, etc ?

I would be interested what your thoughts are if you do get a chance to look into it.
--
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Lloydy
Lloydy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,589
Mick ...

... I just did some landscape and architecture images and shot at around f6.5 - f8. The images are very crisp and clear.

As H2O said, somewhere around the f7.0 mark seems to bring out the lens' clarity.

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Kim Letkeman
Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,435
Re: Ted ...

Lloydy wrote:

... Question ?

Is it really a case of f4 x 4 (crop factor) ? Does this also mean
that a crop factor of 1.5 means you 'times' by 1.5, etc ?

I would be interested what your thoughts are if you do get a chance
to look into it.

The answer is yes, and this has been posted many times by several people. The crop factor affects field of view and depth of field proportional to the factor against aperture and focal length.

So a lense at 100mm and f4 on an APS-C sensor has FOV equivalent to 150mm and DOF equivalent to F6 on a full frame sensor.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/crop-factor.htm

Scroll down to "For Hackers" ...

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Kim Letkeman
Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,435
Re: Mick ...

Lloydy wrote:

... I just did some landscape and architecture images and shot at
around f6.5 - f8. The images are very crisp and clear.

As H2O said, somewhere around the f7.0 mark seems to bring out the
lens' clarity.

So ... the only factor that comes into play when stopping down is diffraction. Are you therefore changing your assertion that diffraction is not an issue on the S100fs? You seem to be, since you now say that a fairly low aperture like F7 brings out the clarity.

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Lloydy
Lloydy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,589
Kim ...
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tdkd13 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,410
Re: Ted ...

Yes, you are correct the crop factor determines the multiplier so on an APS sensor it would be 1.5 times and one of the smaller 4/3" sensors would be 2 times. Some other cams will be 4 to 9 times.

Ted

Lloydy wrote:

... Question ?

Is it really a case of f4 x 4 (crop factor) ? Does this also mean
that a crop factor of 1.5 means you 'times' by 1.5, etc ?

I would be interested what your thoughts are if you do get a chance
to look into it.
--
Rgds, Dave.
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Lloydy
Lloydy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,589
Ted ...

... Thank you.
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prime Senior Member • Posts: 2,209
Necessity to stop down for

Lloydy wrote:

As H2O said, somewhere around the f7.0 mark seems to bring out the
lens' clarity.

If by "clarity" you mean high resolution at decent contrast, then there is no need to stop down to f7.0 to achieve that quality.

Here is an image shot with an S100fs at ISO200 at f3.9. In the original size (2880x3840), even the individual hairs on the back of the bridesmaid's hand (not just those on the arm that you can see in the embedded image here) are delineated with complete clarity.

Lens zoomed to 27.9 mm (110 mm equivalent), 1/900 sec @ f3.9, handheld.

Lloydy
Lloydy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,589
Prime ...

... Beautiful image. Love the colour in it.
--
Rgds, Dave.
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Dame_Blanche Regular Member • Posts: 315
Re: S100fs blurred photo's help

One of the first things I did with the S100FS was checking whether there is a visible detrimental effect of full open aperture and f/8 and f/11 by printing some shots on A3 size. Well, it takes the eyes of an eagle or a magnifying glass to detect differences that MIGHT be related to diffraction. I also concluded that the largest possible aperture at any focal length doesn't harm picture quality.
The keywords in real life photography are "visible detrimental effect".

quote "Even when a camera system is near or just past its diffraction limit, other factors such as focus accuracy, motion blur and imperfect lenses are likely to be more significant. Softening due to diffraction only becomes a limiting factor for total sharpness when using a sturdy tripod, mirror lock-up and a very high quality lens." unquote

And I would like to add..... all photographic detrimental effects will become visible on 'too large' prints observed from a 'too short distance". Grtz. Blanche

prime Senior Member • Posts: 2,209
...the colors

Lloydy wrote:

... Beautiful image. Love the colour in it.

Thanks, but I did not have any input into the bridal party's dresses or the flowers that the bridesmaids would carry; those decisions were left to a Higher Power. FWIW, the S100fs was set to Provia (aka Standard) film simulation, with dynamic range at DR200.

Lloydy
Lloydy Forum Pro • Posts: 19,589
Prime ...

... By the way, I meant to also say that the reason I mentioned f7 was to do more with DOF than anything else.

Bit tired at the moment and multitasking. Apologies if I caused you confusion.
--
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amc123 Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: S100fs blurred photo's help

-You don't get a crop factor with a bridge camera. The lens is fixed to the camera. A crop factor is only of any importance to you if you have a lens that fitted a film camera ( or a full frame digital ) were on either of these a 100mm will stay at 100mm and then you put this lens then on say a Nikon D200 with APS sized sensor were it will then be equivalent to a 150mm lens. ( x1.5 Nikon or 1.6 on some Canons)

As for the pictures you posted. They look very good to me. Raising the ISO as you say would not make them clearer but the opposite. I have a 50mm f1.4 Nikon lens and it only starts to get really sharp at f4 and by f8 it will cut your eyeballs looking at the photos so you have to get to know your camera by taking photos of the same scene (as in your photos) at different aperture settings and see which setting comes out sharpest for a landscape. Try all the sharpness settings. You may find the lowest setting in camera and sharpening them in Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro gives you a much better photo than using the highest setting in camera ( once oversharpened there is no way back )

Basically you have to get to know your camera inside out and this will help you understand your photography better. Try and keep away from Velvia settings as generally it will just produce high contrast images with blown highlights that are difficult to work with.
It's not rocket science.

rennie12 Senior Member • Posts: 2,844
amc123 - interesting to hear someone suggest

testing.

Suggested routine for new camera or new lens test - set the camera on a tripod with a repeatable subject (I use an old railroad engine with tender in a park - it is always available, always the same, and photographing it does not upset the police.)

Now using the self timer expose 3 shots (normal +1 stop, -1 stop) at every shutter speed, ISO, and lens setting you think you might use. It is best to plan these on paper in advance, and I use a chalkboard to show the settings on the scene itself. I prefer RAW because it is the most flexible, but use what you expect to shoot.

This often takes a couple of boring hours.

You now have a record of the best the camera can do with a subject you know, at every setting you use.

When you have a real-life shot you are not happy with - comparison will tell you what the camera is CAPAPABLE of at these settings. Adjust your technique accordingly.

10/29/2008

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Bill Wilson
"One test is worth 10 theories"

Kim Letkeman
Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,435
Re: S100fs blurred photo's help

amc123 wrote:

-You don't get a crop factor with a bridge camera. The lens is fixed
to the camera.

The crop factor for the 2/3" sensor is 4. You multiple by 4 the aperture on the S100fs to get the effective aperture for a 35mm camera from a depth of field standpoint. You multiple the lense focal length by 4 to get the effective focal length for a 35mm camera. You didn't think the tiny lenses compact cameras actually had focal lengths up to 105mm, did you? They actually stop at around 24mm.

Crop factor is very real and affects all cameras if you happen to like to benchmark against full frame .. and who doesn't?

A crop factor is only of any importance to you if you
have a lens that fitted a film camera ( or a full frame digital )
were on either of these a 100mm will stay at 100mm and then you put
this lens then on say a Nikon D200 with APS sized sensor were it will
then be equivalent to a 150mm lens. ( x1.5 Nikon or 1.6 on some
Canons)

It is of important for any camera where you want to easily compare depth of field at a certain aperture to another camera with a different crop factor.

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amc123 Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: S100fs blurred photo's help
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Yes but you don't need to worry about a crop factor on a camera were you cant take the lens off like on a compact or a bridge camera like the s100 do you. Only on an independant lens that you swop between a full frame digital slr like a Nikon D3( or film camera ) and then take it off and put it on a smaller APS camera like a Nikon D200 when you then get a different focal length. You don't appear to understand whats being said. Crop factors do not concern lenses that are fixed onto the camera because they will always give you the same focal length. If you could take the lens off the S100 and put it on say a S6500 then you would have a crop factor because the sensor is smaller on the S6500 and the lens would give you a longer focal length.
Do you understand now!

Do you realise people have 6 or 7 lenses from using film cameras and then digital came along. SLR's, first with the smaller APS sensors and all their lenses were different focal lengths when put on a digital. These are the only people concerned with crop factors not someone with a digital or bridge camera. Thats why full frame cameras are so expensive because they allow photographers with £10,000 pounds worth of lenses to use them once again with no crop factor.
I have explained this as simply as possible

M87 Regular Member • Posts: 456
Re: S100fs blurred photo's help

amc123 wrote:

And your simple explanation serves to show that you do not really understand the issue.

The S100fs does not have a 28-400 zoom lens. It has a 7-100 zoom lens and the 4 x crop factor associated with the small sensor gives the 35mm equivalent. That same crop factor affects the depth of field calculations. Crop factors DO concern anyone interested in depth of field, regardless of the camera.

I made the same mistake when I first got the S100fs.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=28539675

This is a thread which went into the issue in detail back in July.
--
Andy

Kim Letkeman
Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,435
Re: S100fs blurred photo's help

amc123 wrote:

Do you understand now!
I have explained this as simply as possible

I own several dSLRs and almost a dozen lenses by now ... I fully understand your point, which adds nothing new to the discussion at hand.

Reasons why crop factor comes up now and again on this forum include depth of field discussions and size of lense discussions. It also comes up when explaining relative photosite sizes, which affects the noise a sensor produces. Crop factor explains much of what is happening with the bridge cams, that is -- their sensor's size relationship to full frame.

Your explanation takes the narrow (and rather obvious) view that crop factor is only worth understanding in practical use on a dSLR. But it has much more significance than that ... as it can affect and help explain the day to day use of any camera, including one with a fixed lense.

Now ... you may continue to condescend all you like, but before you drop yet another sn0tty response, consider the fact that your own narrow view on a topic might not be everyone else's view ...

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tdkd13 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,410
Re: S100fs blurred photo's help

I would have typed a very same type of post Andy, what AMC123 is failing to take into account is calculations involving depth of field. If you look at a depth of field calculator, such as this one on this site:
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Optical/Depth_of_Field_01.htm

It is plain that crop factor is the dominant variable in the calculation. Since the boxes (variables) you must fill in to calculate DOF ask for ACTUAL lens focal length (not 35mm equiv focal length) and sensor/film size. Play with the numbers and it becomes aparent what the relation is. Maybe "crop factor" is not a term he (AMC123) is comfortable using in that context, but it is the one sort of forced on us by the equation. The variables for sensor size and actual focal length yield crop factor.
Ted

M87 wrote:

amc123 wrote:

And your simple explanation serves to show that you do not really
understand the issue.

The S100fs does not have a 28-400 zoom lens. It has a 7-100 zoom
lens and the 4 x crop factor associated with the small sensor gives
the 35mm equivalent. That same crop factor affects the depth of
field calculations. Crop factors DO concern anyone interested in
depth of field, regardless of the camera.

I made the same mistake when I first got the S100fs.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=28539675

This is a thread which went into the issue in detail back in July.
--
Andy

GirinoFumetto Regular Member • Posts: 186
Re: S100fs blurred photo's help

Human thought can easily remove the lens from an S100FS and put it on a Nikon 700.

It is not prevented by the lack of interchangeability.

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