No doubt. 5D beats 50D on IQ!

Started Oct 3, 2008 | Discussions
Vidar NM
Vidar NM Regular Member • Posts: 456
No doubt. 5D beats 50D on IQ!

I claimed in another thread that the 50D - although a brilliant camera - can't measure up to the 5D in terms of image quality. Was asked for "proof" and did a comparison this morning. I used the 24-105 lens for the test - at 24mm for the 50D and 35mm for the 5D (should have been 38,4, sorry about that). Manual exposure f8 1/100 s. The light was the same during the few minutes I used to do the captures.

Both images are shot in raw, opened in DPP (neutral cam profile) with all kinds of options turned off (nr/usm/alo). They were converted to full size jpegs with exactly the same settings. I think furher comments are unnecessary. Here is a montage of both images side by side. 5D on the left side.

http://flickr.com/photos/vidarnm/2909620606/sizes/o/

Regards
-vidar

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Vidar NM
OP Vidar NM Regular Member • Posts: 456
Re: No doubt. 5D beats 50D on IQ!

This was my post that led to this little test, which I think shows the benefits of FF. There is more detail and colors are better resolved.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=29563508

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desmo101
desmo101 Contributing Member • Posts: 811
Re: No doubt. 5D beats 50D on IQ!

oh you guys.... now i'm gonna have to get a 5D2

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Decoboy Regular Member • Posts: 172
Have you used the Hi ISO NR?

Hi Vidar,

I got my 50D yesterday (also have a 5DII on order).

I'm just finishing some 40D-50D noise/resolution tests using an IEEE card. Will post tomorrow.

Initially I was disappointed with the 50D noise however... after reading the manual I noted that HINR is not applied in camera to 50D raw files (I believe it was fully/partially in the 40D)

Like you I guess, I normally do not use HINR in my tests, hence my 'mistake'. Here's what I found:

Canon appears to be doing something quite different in DPP for the 50D. When the Raw images come into DPP the HINR setting is stored e.g. for ISO 12800 Lum/NR is 10, Chroma 14, both quite high (understandably). The results are breathtaking, I had to check three times that I wasn't looking at ISO 3200 or lower!

No matter what I did in DPP with the 40D shots they couldn't match the 50D's for noise, and resolution was clearly better.

My guess is that Canon have made significant changes to the NR routines in the latest DPP to work with the 50D

Cheers
--
Brian

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Vidar NM
OP Vidar NM Regular Member • Posts: 456
Re: No doubt. 5D beats 50D on IQ!

desmo101 wrote:

oh you guys.... now i'm gonna have to get a 5D2

Come on! As I said the 50D is a brilliant camera, but it's edge is just on other areas than this test is about. With primes and L zooms from 50mm and up, you will really enjoy the 50D.

Another thing is that if you take the image into PS and view it at 50%, it's much harder to see difference. You actually need to make big prints to take advantage of the 5D's edge here...

Regarding the 5D2 I will wait to see what the new sensor delivers (although I'm on the list for one). Both the amount of MP and the high iso race could have a negative impact on the sensors ability to produce detail and colors like the old 5D.

v

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pdqgp Forum Pro • Posts: 10,612
interested in your findings

I'm interested in your images and findings as I had no problems processing the noise and clarity of hi-ISO images from the 40D to match the 50D. Actually, IMO, the 50D isn't much different at all once the end product from each image is completed.

I believe the in camera processing has changed in the 50D, whereas the 40D may require some of the cleanup and processing post-camera, but overall, the 40D Hi ISO images, even pushed to 6400 and higher are right on par with the 50D.

Decoboy wrote:

No matter what I did in DPP with the 40D shots they couldn't match
the 50D's for noise, and resolution was clearly better.

My guess is that Canon have made significant changes to the NR
routines in the latest DPP to work with the 50D

Cheers
--
Brian

-- hide signature --

-tim

NW Columbus/Dublin, Ohio
http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro

Vidar NM
OP Vidar NM Regular Member • Posts: 456
Re: Have you used the Hi ISO NR?

My guess is that Canon have made significant changes to the NR
routines in the latest DPP to work with the 50D

Cheers
--
Brian

Absolutely. That's exactly what I think too.
v

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Matthew Thibeau New Member • Posts: 1
Re: No doubt. 5D beats 50D on IQ!

If you sharpen each image separately you'll come up with different sharpening values before each look over sharpened.

For the 5d Image, I could do USM Radius 1, Amount 45-65, Threshold 3

For the 50d Image I could do USM Radius 1, Amount 100-115, Threshold 3

At this point, the images look almost identical.

Decoboy Regular Member • Posts: 172
Nut's my image host is down!

Hi Tim,
I was going to post a quick teaser of tomorrow's post.

However just discovered my imaging host is down till the 4th - blast. Think it might be time to change to pBase or some other site.

BTW have you noticed the 40D shooting darker? (It certainly shoots darker than the 20/30D)

In my studio tests, both metered (in AV mode) very similar exact shutter times, however the 40D consistently produced shots between .3-.5 stops lower. Seems the 50D has gone back to the 20D/30D ISO 'brighter' interpretation. Which means you can get the same exposure result with the 50D with a higher shutter/lower ISO/smaller aperture.

Cheers
--
Brian

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SmokinMan Contributing Member • Posts: 855
Re: Have you used the Hi ISO NR?

Just install DPP3.5 today. Loaded one of your earlier RAW with the lady staring at computer monitor ISO 3200 (that shots was underexpose by a stop) and several other 50D RAW and found out when in-camera NR was set to "standard" there is too much luminance Noise Reduction for ISO 3200 and up. I will have to turn it down to "2" for ISO 3200 50D Files and Increase the Chrominance NR a bit to 12-15 to get the look that I like.

Open up my old 30D files with apply camera setting kind of problematic.I dont know why but DPP 3.5 kind of assigning NR parameter to all my image to Luminance 2 and chrominance 0. SO I have to check set default on all NR to "0". I think you said ssomething like the new dpp is doing some magic to the 5D RAW by automatically assigning NR parameter to 5D RAW. am I correct? What is the crominance and luminance setting automatically assigned to 5D say an ISO 3200RAW when you first load it if I may ask. Thanks

Vidar NM wrote:

My guess is that Canon have made significant changes to the NR
routines in the latest DPP to work with the 50D

Cheers
--
Brian

Absolutely. That's exactly what I think too.
v

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SmokinMan

LeeBase Veteran Member • Posts: 5,413
Two different classes of camera

You won't choose between these two cameras based on "image quality'. I had the 20D/5D combo and now have 40D/5D combo -- and I never choose between them based on "image quality" -- not even when it was the 20D.

Why? Because they are different classes of camera. I use the 5D when it makes sense based on it's full frame sensor. It's great for portraits and essential when I need to go wide.

However -- it's sluggish for sports and action shots. For that, I used my 20D.

When shooting weddings, I'd put my wide lenses on the 5D and the long ones on the 20D.

If I could only have one camera -- and had to choose between the 50D and 5D -- I would choose the 50D as heartbreaking as it would be to give up my beloved 5D.

Why? Because the crop sensor cameras are better "all around" -- great for sports and do just fine for portraits and landscapes. And they are still a lot cheaper.

Making money shooting portraits or landscape -- then I'd go with the 5D (which is why I did).

Lee

Decoboy Regular Member • Posts: 172
No that was me re the 50D

Smokinman,

You said

"I think you said something like the new dpp is doing some magic to the 5D RAW by automatically assigning NR parameter to 5D RAW. am I correct? "

No it wasn't Vidar re the 5D it was me saying the 50D seems to be benefiting greatly by DPP 3.5
--
Brian

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alanwarp Regular Member • Posts: 202
24-105 is better at 35mm than at 24mm

I would have liked to see this test with the 50D not handicapped by the wide end of the 24-105, maybe use something like 35mm on 50D and 50mm on 5D.

The 24-105 is definitely better at 40mm @ f/8 than at 24mm @ f/8, see MTF bar graphs:

http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/188-canon-ef-24-105mm-f4-usm-l-is-lab-test-report--review?start=1

Sadja Herzog Senior Member • Posts: 1,752
IMO Same Framing Necessary

IMO you should have framed the scenes as similarly as possible (not L and R halves) so that direct comparison of objects could be made. Color variations are somewhat irrelevant in this comparison because they could be tweaked to nearly identical values.
--
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snappey Senior Member • Posts: 1,050
Of course it does, no surprise there.

This just seems like a no-brainer. The 5DII is a full-frame state-of-the-art 21mp sensor, the 50D is a 1.6 crop state-of-the-art 15mp sensor.

Vidar NM wrote:

I claimed in another thread that the 50D - although a brilliant
camera - can't measure up to the 5D in terms of image quality. Was
asked for "proof" and did a comparison this morning. I used the
24-105 lens for the test - at 24mm for the 50D and 35mm for the 5D
(should have been 38,4, sorry about that). Manual exposure f8 1/100
s. The light was the same during the few minutes I used to do the
captures.
Both images are shot in raw, opened in DPP (neutral cam profile) with
all kinds of options turned off (nr/usm/alo). They were converted to
full size jpegs with exactly the same settings. I think furher
comments are unnecessary. Here is a montage of both images side by
side. 5D on the left side.

http://flickr.com/photos/vidarnm/2909620606/sizes/o/

Regards
-vidar

Chief Senior Member • Posts: 1,531
50D beats 5D in this test

http://www.naturfoto.net/news.html

Clearly the 50D resolves more and sharper in this test. Additionally, in your example the vignetting is bad in the 5D sample photo and the corners are much softer in the 5D shot.

-- hide signature --

Regards,
John

rrcphoto Veteran Member • Posts: 6,173
Re: No doubt. 5D beats 50D on IQ!

Matthew Thibeau wrote:

If you sharpen each image separately you'll come up with different
sharpening values before each look over sharpened.

For the 5d Image, I could do USM Radius 1, Amount 45-65, Threshold 3

For the 50d Image I could do USM Radius 1, Amount 100-115, Threshold 3

At this point, the images look almost identical.

that makes sense - assuming the lens isn't the limitation - at f/8 we'd have slight blurring caused by diffraction on the 50D that wouldn't be evident on the 5D at f/8 .. a higher USM would tend to minimize that appearance - and also variations on the AA filter.

Vidar .. actually I'm surprised the 50D held up that well all things considered. how does it look of you take the 50D down to the 5D native resolution size?

pfonseka Regular Member • Posts: 154
Re: Of course it does, no surprise there.

we are talking about 5d not 5d MII

pfonseka Regular Member • Posts: 154
Re: Two different classes of camera

I've this dilema ... I will buy only one camera to do some weddings (i'm starting...)
Do you think 50D will do the job? And about the hight ISO in the 50D?

carlk Forum Pro • Posts: 15,940
Re: No doubt. 5D beats 50D on IQ!

Matter of fact the result could be totally different if you use 17-55 for the 50D test.

Vidar NM wrote:

With primes and L zooms
from 50mm and up, you will really enjoy the 50D.

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