60Ds - low noise sensor version of the next upgrade xx-model.

Started Sep 25, 2008 | Discussions
Pusseapa Contributing Member • Posts: 722
60Ds - low noise sensor version of the next upgrade xx-model.

From the early tests it looks like the 50d is a little bit worse than the 40d when it comes to noise, as could be expected with the extra MP. Granted, the out-of-camera-jpgs are a bit smoother, but that's because of the more aggressive noise-reduction, which ofcourse removes some more detail as well.

So - It's as one might have guessed - Extra cool features, better LCD and so on, a pile of Megapixels, et voilá - the new camera model.

I'm starting to get a bit grumpy about this development. I want low noise far far more than I want more resolution. And I know I'm not the only one.

heck, I'd be happy with a 350d with supah-low-noise and a bit better AF...

Anyway, don't you think there may come, in the future, specialized versions of some models? So that they release, say, a 60d with 21 bloody megapixels or whatever for the resolution-hungry crowd, but also a "60ds"(dynamic range & sensitivity, hehe), with perhaps an 8-10MP extra sensitive gapless microlenses or whatever-sensor? A sensor developed exlusively to be as noise-free as possible?

I bet they could make a crazy good sensor if they wanted to. And I know it would sell. People are getting more and more informed.

This way, the customer would have the choice between resolution or low light capabilities, and we'd all be happy, holding hands and dancing into the sunset.

But will they do it? If not, when will the madness end?
--
.

Michael Kaplan
Michael Kaplan Veteran Member • Posts: 4,372
sorry...

Where do you see this? From everything I see, the 50D is at least as good and more smaples than not better than the 40D. Even the worst samples I have seen have only shown to be about even when pixel peeping and to acomplish that with 50% more pixels is quite a feat and my guess is you will see the 50D actually a little bit better than the 40D.

The madness will never end because consumers always want more. you do. Canon is just providing that the majority of people want, not the more select group here on these forums. Even within these forums, people want whatever it doesn't have. That is normal and I am one of those who likes hardware and is upgrading yet again. But at least I don't complain about it. I do it in quiet peace
--
Michael Kaplan
http://www.pbase.com/mkaplan
See my profile for equipment list

 Michael Kaplan's gear list:Michael Kaplan's gear list
Sony a9 Nikon Z7 Sony 1.4x Teleconverter Sony FE 100-400mm F4.5-5.6 Sony RX100 III +27 more
OP Pusseapa Contributing Member • Posts: 722
Re: sorry...

Yo. Well I've seen it in comparisons here on the forum, and other places.
For example here, compared to the 40d:
http://www.fotosidan.se/forum/showthread.php?t=98125

http://www.fotosidan.se/forum/showthread.php?t=98125&page=2
(the forum is in swedish sorry, but the 50d pictures are the noisier ones )

And yes, it's quite a feat to increase the MP that much and keep the noise down. Bravo. Well done. Now give me a really really good sensor instead.
--
.

Damovich Contributing Member • Posts: 919
Re: sorry...

People DO want more but its only human (only look at our current technological-world for instance

I'm pretty satisfied with the 40D for that matter, no need to upgrade such a beautifull camera but i'd surely would 've wanted the micro-adjustment feature and while i'm at it a usable auto-ISO feature would 've been nice too :))

 Damovich's gear list:Damovich's gear list
A3000 Canon EOS Rebel SL2
DiveDr Contributing Member • Posts: 712
Re: sorry...

I agree, MF would be nice and I would have preferred to see a body with better low light, higher DR, better AF and only 10MP.

loafer Senior Member • Posts: 1,580
larger sensor

you want less noise - you need a larger sensor. as you now know this will cost you, and when you think you have reached the peak someone will build a larger sensor.

CapnM Regular Member • Posts: 340
5DII is to 50D what 1DsIII is to the 1DIII

Cost ratio is about the same too.

Not too happy about that either, but there you go.

Michael McNight Regular Member • Posts: 276
Re: 60Ds - low noise sensor version of the next upgrade xx-model.

Sorry, I'm not seeing it!

Pusseapa wrote:

From the early tests it looks like the 50d is a little bit worse than
the 40d when it comes to noise, as could be expected with the extra
MP. Granted, the out-of-camera-jpgs are a bit smoother, but that's
because of the more aggressive noise-reduction, which ofcourse
removes some more detail as well.
So - It's as one might have guessed - Extra cool features, better LCD
and so on, a pile of Megapixels, et voilá - the new camera model.

I'm starting to get a bit grumpy about this development. I want low
noise far far more than I want more resolution. And I know I'm not
the only one.

heck, I'd be happy with a 350d with supah-low-noise and a bit better
AF...

Anyway, don't you think there may come, in the future, specialized
versions of some models? So that they release, say, a 60d with 21
bloody megapixels or whatever for the resolution-hungry crowd, but
also a "60ds"(dynamic range & sensitivity, hehe), with perhaps an
8-10MP extra sensitive gapless microlenses or whatever-sensor? A
sensor developed exlusively to be as noise-free as possible?
I bet they could make a crazy good sensor if they wanted to. And I
know it would sell. People are getting more and more informed.

This way, the customer would have the choice between resolution or
low light capabilities, and we'd all be happy, holding hands and
dancing into the sunset.

But will they do it? If not, when will the madness end?
--
.

 Michael McNight's gear list:Michael McNight's gear list
Sony 24-70mm F2.8 II
Cal Dawson Veteran Member • Posts: 4,810
You could...

Take a lesson from the 5D users when doing a comparison. Compare two (Similar) shots one from a 20D/30D/40D and one from the 50D, downsize the 50D to the same dimensions as the 20D/30D/40D and voila! Lower noise than the comparatible model. I don't see why it would not work here, not the first time we compare apples to bananas....
--
Cal

Put a Canon to your head, You deserve it....

http://funshots.smugmug.com/

Andreas Helke Senior Member • Posts: 1,204
Re: 60Ds - low noise sensor version of the next upgrade xx-model.

You wont get a low noise sensor by reducing its resolution. To really improve the noise performance you need a bigger sensor.

With DSLR pixel sizes the resolution of the sensor has very little influence on the amount of noise you get in your image. You get noisier pixels but the extra noise disappears again when you downsize your image to the size you would get with th lower resolution sensor.

But I wonder if the smaller pixel increase the amount of banding pattern noise you get.

If you actually can get a high ISO performance advantage from a lower resolution sensor it will be insignificant enough that Canon will never bother to create such a sensor.

But maybe they will improve the pixel binning for sRAW. sRAW is the low resolution low noise sensor solution introduced by Canon. Fuji just introduced a P&S sensor with more accurate pixel binning by reordering the colors in the color filter array.

When resized to a common size the 50D seems to have a bit less noise and a bit more dynamic range than the 40D. The 50D image looks visibly better than the 40D one. But the quality difference is small enough that it is pretty much meaningless.

For me the biggest disappointment of the 50D sensor is that it still produces a lot of banding pattern noise at ISO 3200 to ISO 12800. In regards of pattern noise the 50D might be even worse than the 30D or 40D. But I did not see enough comparisons to really confirm this suspicion.

plugin Contributing Member • Posts: 806
Re: You could...

But then what would you complain about? THAT will never work around here!

Cal Dawson wrote:

Take a lesson from the 5D users when doing a comparison. Compare two
(Similar) shots one from a 20D/30D/40D and one from the 50D, downsize
the 50D to the same dimensions as the 20D/30D/40D and voila! Lower
noise than the comparatible model. I don't see why it would not work
here, not the first time we compare apples to bananas....
--
Cal

Put a Canon to your head, You deserve it....

http://funshots.smugmug.com/

Dietmar Fichter Senior Member • Posts: 1,655
Re: 60Ds - low noise sensor version of the next upgrade xx-model.

Andreas Helke wrote:

You wont get a low noise sensor by reducing its resolution. To really
improve the noise performance you need a bigger sensor.

That is not necessarily true, to get lower noise the signal to noise ratio of the light converting diodes at each pixel site must be increased. If technology can be found to do this then smaller and more efficient pixel diodes can be placed on the sensor, so in essence the sensor does not have to increase in size.

Currently I am involved in a similar problem, here at The university of Western Ontario, how to make a solar panel more efficient. The way to do this is not to increase the size of the panel but to develop new materials which are more efficient in converting the sun light into electricity.

Dietmar

With DSLR pixel sizes the resolution of the sensor has very little
influence on the amount of noise you get in your image. You get
noisier pixels but the extra noise disappears again when you downsize
your image to the size you would get with th lower resolution sensor.

But I wonder if the smaller pixel increase the amount of banding
pattern noise you get.

If you actually can get a high ISO performance advantage from a lower
resolution sensor it will be insignificant enough that Canon will
never bother to create such a sensor.

But maybe they will improve the pixel binning for sRAW. sRAW is the
low resolution low noise sensor solution introduced by Canon. Fuji
just introduced a P&S sensor with more accurate pixel binning by
reordering the colors in the color filter array.

When resized to a common size the 50D seems to have a bit less noise
and a bit more dynamic range than the 40D. The 50D image looks
visibly better than the 40D one. But the quality difference is small
enough that it is pretty much meaningless.

For me the biggest disappointment of the 50D sensor is that it still
produces a lot of banding pattern noise at ISO 3200 to ISO 12800. In
regards of pattern noise the 50D might be even worse than the 30D or
40D. But I did not see enough comparisons to really confirm this
suspicion.

Cal Dawson Veteran Member • Posts: 4,810
Good Point...

If nothing else it is a point to argue about...
--
Cal

Put a Canon to your head, You deserve it....

http://funshots.smugmug.com/

therickman Senior Member • Posts: 1,305
Re: 60Ds - low noise sensor version of the next upgrade xx-model.

I just put in my order for the 50D. I have the 40D and XT (350D). Here's why I'm getting the 50D:

  • It's 15MP as opposed to 10MP, which gives me more crop room and still have good IQ.

  • AF Micro-adjustment

  • Noise is on par with the 40D even with 50% more pixels. That's pretty impressive!

  • Better LCD display. A necessity for me when shooting weddings.

  • It's the same price as the 40D when it came out. Better camera for the money.

I will also be getting the 5DII when it comes out. I'll be selling my XT and 40D to fund it, so my setup will be the 5DII as main camera and the 50D as supplemental/backup.

-- hide signature --

Insert pretentious obligatory quote here...

TANWare Regular Member • Posts: 203
General consumers

Hi,

Whenever I take out my 40D I hear "Wow now that's a camera, hom many megapixels is it?" Consumers in general just want to hear the picture IQ is nice enough for a good print and generally think the more megapixels the better that print will be.

They will leave it on auto so the ISO and other features we've come to want, expect and adore will just be decided in camera. Most of the 4x6's or 5x7's will not be of an issue and even 8x10's are usually not one as well.

Most DSLR owners are P&S upgraders that have grown up and have a larger bank account just waiting to splurge for a bigger and better toy. True hobbiests and PRO's are only a very small part of the market.

pdqgp Forum Pro • Posts: 10,616
Re: 60Ds - low noise sensor version of the next upgrade xx-model.

maybe the same selling price, but my dollar got me a lot more back when I bought my 40D that the same dollar in our market today why did I just put a smile their? oh....sad humor.

therickman wrote:

  • It's the same price as the 40D when it came out. Better camera for

the money.

-- hide signature --

-tim

NW Columbus/Dublin, Ohio
http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro

therickman Senior Member • Posts: 1,305
Re: 60Ds - low noise sensor version of the next upgrade xx-model.

Hey Tim. What's going on with my ol' Buckeyes, huh? Ranked 14th?!!

-- hide signature --

Insert pretentious obligatory quote here...

Dejan Malikovski Senior Member • Posts: 1,611
Nicely said!

I really want the extended dynamic mode and offcourse the low noise. The lenses don't become soft and other stuff. I am thinking of ways to improve dynamic range in my photos by tweaking the camera, but it is not it. I am looking at S5 photos and they are sublime.

Why cannot some other company focus on this? Or not focus, but make a dedicated model. If canon made it, it would not be a lot cheaper, but not expensive.

The sensor design must go through the 1d series to take care of the initial costs of production. And so canon won't cut sales to the 1ds. BUT why not cut the 1d sales by releasing, a new line of cameras!
1D, 1Ds, 1Dr.
5D, 5Dr(ultra far future)
60D, 60Dr

The r models should focus on the photographic side of films and pure imagery. For a FF sensor 16MP sensor with 11stop DR range in JPG, similar if not exactly like the S5, but 13-14stop DR in RAW mode. The iso values would go through the roof because of the big sensor and almost gapless microlenses. The first camera with 51,200ISO with DR of 8jpg and 9raw.

Also the same sensor would be used in 5Dr, but many years later, after all begining costs would be dealt with.

For a crop sensor and a 60Dr the sensor with a crop factor should not have more than 10MP. I know that is the design of 40D and this is not possible, so the 60Dr must have less MP, or around 8MP. Similar to the big brother, it is essential to provide 11stop DR in jpg and 12-13stop DR in RAW. Since gapless microlenses are already introduced in this line of cameras there is not much problem for ISO values. 12,000+ should be super with 7stopDR and 8stop in RAW.
That would be my dream camera...
--

http://www.dmalikovski.deviantart.com/gallery

ilyarom Regular Member • Posts: 188
Re: You could...and you too...

just try, reducing each dimention 2 times, 4 times in pixels, give you 2 times better S/N, lets calculate what we gain from downsizing from 15 MP to 10 MP:

gain = log2 (sqrt (15/10)) = 0.2 (!!!).

You gain 0.2 stops !

If not believe, try, and you find this is true.

Regards.

loafer Senior Member • Posts: 1,580
taking pictures in the dark

I just don't get this fascination with the capability of taking pictures in near darkness. For one thing most beautiful images at night are timed exposures where the motion of moving lighted objects really enhances them. Even indoor events are usually lit well enough to get decent results at ISO 400 (fast moving sports may need higher - but that kind of shooting always benefits throwing cash at it). Okay so you also want enhanced DR - RAW gives an amazing amount of DR already and at 6 fps and some exposure bracketing you will be able to create HDR images with 32 bits of color information. Right now its all taken care of in PP (which is 100% mandatory for HDR). So that is a software problem that has been solved

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