AutoWB- GrayCast Problem

Started Sep 25, 2008 | Discussions
Lightwaver Forum Member • Posts: 57
AutoWB- GrayCast Problem

Gray Cast occurs when you use the AUTOWB in D3/ D700 / D300 D90

If I have any other models(D200/ D2Xs/ Canon 5D) tested in the same environment, the problem does not occur.

Besides, If I do not use AUTOWB, Gray Cast did not occur.

Gray Cast means deasturate color that are low statutated colors in Photo like dark Skin tone and wall paper, Green Leaf in the shadow etc.

Look at the picture. It was taken by D3 with AUTOWB

It is changed by Daylight WB in Nikon NX

in case D300 AutoWB

Nikon NX with Daylight WB

If you don't understand Gray Cast, look at the pictures with D2Xs and D300

Left is D300 and Right is D2Xs

I tried to test others with D300/ D700 about gray cast problem in same condition

All were shot by the following settings
ISO 400, F/2.8, 1/20s, Auto WB

D200

D2Xs

I couln't find any problem -this result is a typical shooting

However, the D700 and D300 were showing different results

D300

D700

How do you think about these results do?

This is just the result of the user by mistake?

I want to show you this is Nikon's Wrong image processing algorithms and the wrong AutoWB

when I converted NEF Files that has Gray cast problem with Lightroom 2.0
there was no Problem .

D700 NEF Converted by NikonNX 2.0 - Picture control is Portrait mode

Converted by Lightroom 2.0 with camera Portrait profiel beta.

Graycast problem is gone.

I want to ask you all..

This is just the result of the user by mistake? or Nikon's fault?

voider Veteran Member • Posts: 3,018
Same Problem here

I don't trust the Auto White balance any more so much. It works great in sunny conditions but as soon as there is some overcast the whitebalance just takes all the colors out and gives the pictures a strange look. Thankfully I only shoot raw, so that it is no problem fixing this in Capture later.

Just switch the WB to Sunny, overcast or any appropiate setting. IMO my D2x had a better AWB in many situations.

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Luke Kaven Veteran Member • Posts: 5,715
Re: AutoWB- GrayCast Problem

It seems as though the camera is picking a "grey point" for white balance out of the scene as a guess when it decides the lighting cues are not good enough to find a determinate color temperature. Something like this happened to me the other night when I shot a photo of someone looking at his lighted cell phone in otherwise nonexistent light, and the subject came out virtually monochrome. While it was a nice effect in my case, I can see how in the other cases cited, it could be disturbing.

I'd wager that this area is under constant development, and that the state-of-the-art is only crude at best. Doing automatic white balance is a very hard problem.

While you're getting evidence together in search of a solution, I might recommend always shooting RAW.

WS Schappell Regular Member • Posts: 455
Or use ExpoDisc

The expodisc is the single best thing I've put in my camera bag for white balance.

http://www.expodisc.com
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OP Lightwaver Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: Or use ExpoDisc

I'm an instructor Nikon Photo school in korea.

and Book Writer " Lightroom & Raw Bible"

The core of this issue is not an inaccurate auto White Balance, but infelicitous image Processing of Nikon D3 / D700 / D300 D90 using Picture Control.

New image processing of Nikon under AutoWB is make low saturated colors into totally desaturated things like B/W photo.

So, photos shot under autoWB with D3/ D700/D300/D90 seems very strange . especially Skin tone, Green leaf, wall, etc.

WS Schappell Regular Member • Posts: 455
I hardly ever use AWB

It's just too flaky in any camera system. Unless there's something predominantly white in the composition that the AWB sensor can go "AH HA!" with, it's hit or miss.

I understand what you're saying and it certainly may be a problem, but one thing I've learned is that generally speaking auto anything is a mixed bag :).

Also, I wasn't calling your credibility into question :).
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DogShot Contributing Member • Posts: 648
Re: AutoWB- GrayCast Problem

Lightwaver wrote:

Gray Cast occurs when you use the AUTOWB in D3/ D700 / D300 D90

I know exactly what you mean. I experience this on many of my shots. This example is more subtle than many, but it is there, and can also be seen in print.

Mark

Leos Senior Member • Posts: 2,077
Re: Or use ExpoDisc

Lightwaver wrote:

The core of this issue is not an inaccurate auto White Balance, but
infelicitous image Processing of Nikon D3 / D700 / D300 D90 using
Picture Control.

New image processing of Nikon under AutoWB is make low saturated
colors into totally desaturated things like B/W photo.

So, photos shot under autoWB with D3/ D700/D300/D90 seems very
strange . especially Skin tone, Green leaf, wall, etc.

Did you try selecting different picture styles (neutral, standard etc.) ?

I am a bit concerned ... can this issue be fixed in NX2 by applying another wb setting (preset or custom) ?

OP Lightwaver Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: Or use ExpoDisc

Leos wrote:

Did you try selecting different picture styles (neutral, standard
etc.) ?
I am a bit concerned ... can this issue be fixed in NX2 by applying
another wb setting (preset or custom) ?

It is Not a problem with Different Picture Control Mode, but AutoWB.

I have confident about this

If you want to avoid the Gray Cast Problem, just change WB or Use Preset WB.

and Take Raw, and convert with Lightroom 2.0 (you Should have Camera Picture control Profile by Adobe)

purplemountain New Member • Posts: 1
Re: Or use ExpoDisc

It's not an issue of AutoWB, but an issue of PictureControl relative to AutoWB. And, changing Picture Styple doesn't help to remove Grey Cast problem.

We can avoid it by taking a picture in RAW format, which means the unknown mechanism of Picture Control causes Grey Cast issue in our opinion.

OP Lightwaver Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: Or use ExpoDisc

purplemountain wrote:

It's not an issue of AutoWB, but an issue of PictureControl relative
to AutoWB. And, changing Picture Styple doesn't help to remove Grey
Cast problem.
We can avoid it by taking a picture in RAW format, which means the
unknown mechanism of Picture Control causes Grey Cast issue in our
opinion.

purplemountain: Yes.. It's Correct. That's what I'm saying.

OP Lightwaver Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: AutoWB- GrayCast Problem

If you have a dog, take a picture with D3/ D700/ D90/ D300 with autowb

You can find the colors are strange.

D300

Luke Kaven Veteran Member • Posts: 5,715
Re: AutoWB- GrayCast Problem

Your image reference gets a 403 - Forbidden error.

OP Lightwaver Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: AutoWB- GrayCast Problem

Sorry.. Re post

Leos Senior Member • Posts: 2,077
Ok let me get this right...

Sorry if I am not too fast this morning, Im still on the first cup of coffee

But ... even if shoot with awb , but RAW the gray cast will not happen when converting with photoshop. What about nx2 ?

I am just wondering if there are inconsistency between between NX2 and on-board JPG engine.

OP Lightwaver Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: Ok let me get this right...

Leos wrote:

Sorry if I am not too fast this morning, Im still on the first cup of
coffee
But ... even if shoot with awb , but RAW the gray cast will not
happen when converting with photoshop. What about nx2 ?
I am just wondering if there are inconsistency between between NX2
and on-board JPG engine.

When I converted it NX2, it was same with camera JPG. It still remain Gray Cast

but Gray Cast removed when i just change the WB using another wb preset like daylight, or high color rendering Fluecent.

OP Lightwaver Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: I hardly ever use AWB

WS Schappell wrote:

It's just too flaky in any camera system. Unless there's something
predominantly white in the composition that the AWB sensor can go "AH
HA!" with, it's hit or miss.

I understand what you're saying and it certainly may be a problem,
but one thing I've learned is that generally speaking auto anything
is a mixed bag :).

Also, I wasn't calling your credibility into question :).
--
No pixels were harmed in the writing of this post.

Equipment in profile.
Pleae view my gallery http://gallery.schappellphotographics.com/

Sorry. The reason what I commented my career is that I want to tell you I'm not a spammer or troll...:)

Leos Senior Member • Posts: 2,077
Re: Ok let me get this right...

Lightwaver wrote:

When I converted it NX2, it was same with camera JPG. It still
remain Gray Cast

but Gray Cast removed when i just change the WB using another wb
preset like daylight, or high color rendering Fluecent.

Thanks for clearing that out

Luke Kaven Veteran Member • Posts: 5,715
Re: Or use ExpoDisc

Still, after everything you've said, I don't see why my suggestion is ruled out. You claim desaturation, but that is indistinguishable from the case where the AWB makes a wrong guess about a white balance target in mixed lighting.

Lightwaver wrote:

I'm an instructor Nikon Photo school in korea.

and Book Writer " Lightroom & Raw Bible"

The core of this issue is not an inaccurate auto White Balance, but
infelicitous image Processing of Nikon D3 / D700 / D300 D90 using
Picture Control.

New image processing of Nikon under AutoWB is make low saturated
colors into totally desaturated things like B/W photo.

So, photos shot under autoWB with D3/ D700/D300/D90 seems very
strange . especially Skin tone, Green leaf, wall, etc.

Leos Senior Member • Posts: 2,077
Re: Or use ExpoDisc

Luke Kaven wrote:

Still, after everything you've said, I don't see why my suggestion is
ruled out. You claim desaturation, but that is indistinguishable
from the case where the AWB makes a wrong guess about a white balance
target in mixed lighting.

Since the problem isn't related directly to AWB, but still only occurs when you use AWB , I guess it's a safe bet to say that the rest is of academic value only. Using anything other than AWB (including expo disc) or even using AWB but shooting RAW and correct WB in postprocessing will all be viable work-arounds.

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