I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

Started Aug 1, 2008 | Discussions
MartinCohn Regular Member • Posts: 422
I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

Leica will be releasing a new, lower price rangefinder, an R10, and the new D Lux-4.

Chuck A Senior Member • Posts: 1,874
Re: I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

OK, I'll bite. How do you know this? What are your sources or is this just trolling?

The D-Lux 4 is not a stretch since Panny has announced the LX3. The R10 is overdue and the lower priced rangefinder has been asked for but I'd be surprised to see it.

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OP MartinCohn Regular Member • Posts: 422
Re: I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

I was told by a very reliable source. Leica wants to expand it's sales in their camera and lens divisions. Making an RF camera that is affordable, ($1000 - $2,000) and lenses that are more affordable, which they are doing currently, should get more people using the RF format. This camera will be announced and shown at Photokina, along with the new R10, and the Dlux-4, in a kit form (including a telephoto add-on lens). It makes good marketing sense. Also, they are going to drop the 4/3 system, leaving Olympus to their Zuiko lenses, and continue their association with Panasonic. My source is solid, I'm not a troll. I guess we'll know next month, for sure. Marty

OP MartinCohn Regular Member • Posts: 422
Re: I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

The M8 will stay as their flagship, with the options, new quieter shutter, sapphire lcd, etc, and they are working on a FF RF, but that will be awhile.

tweedle Veteran Member • Posts: 4,480
A sub $2k Leica RF?

MartinCohn wrote:

The M8 will stay as their flagship, with the options, new quieter
shutter, sapphire lcd, etc, and they are working on a FF RF, but that
will be awhile.

Everything you say here is in line with what was already implied or suggested by the Leica CEO a while back, as discussed at length in this forum.

  • A DSLR revival (R-mount? AF? Many questions unanswered)

  • A smaller, less expensive RF to compliment the M8

  • No future interest in 4/3

  • A FF M8-successor in the works, but not to appear soon

Which all makes a lot of sense IMO.

I would be surprised to see a Leica sub $2k RF (or even close to $1k), however, if this is to be manufactured by Leica. Panasonic could do it, and they could do it just right with all the right electronics, but they may not be suited for production in such low numbers.

tweedle Veteran Member • Posts: 4,480
Re: I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

MartinCohn wrote:

... they are going to drop the 4/3 system, leaving Olympus to their Zuiko
lenses, and continue their association with Panasonic.

The content of this is a bit unclear to me, Martin.

EITHER There will be no more Leica rebranded 4/3 Panasonic-DSLR, even though Panasonic will continue to make (lower end) 4/3 DSLRs. If so, these DSLRs will probably still be equipped with Leica lenses like all other Panasonic digital cameras.

OR there will be no more Leica rebranded 4/3 Panasonic DSLR, because there will be no future Panasonic 4/3 DSLRs to rebrand. If so, you are right in saying the Olmpus will be left with their Zuiko lenses, I guess - even though Sigma also makes one or more lenses for this mount at present.

richygm
richygm Regular Member • Posts: 415
Re: I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

If MC is right, it looks as if my dream is coming true. Provided the new RF will take the equivalent of a 28mm lens.

speenth Forum Member • Posts: 81
Re: I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

MartinCohn wrote:

I was told by a very reliable source. Leica wants to expand it's
sales in their camera and lens divisions. Making an RF camera that is
affordable, ($1000 - $2,000) and lenses that are more affordable ..."

Hi' Marty,

Interesting, level-headed stuff. However, if the low-cost RF accepts M-lenses, produces images technically comparable with the M8 and proves reliable, I'd be concerned for the future of the M8. Sales are already faltering. Who'd continue to buy it? The M8 has little going for it except brand name, physical dimensions and the RF concept. The cheap RF would have all those attributes too!

Leica will take care to maintain sales of its flagship model - so I doubt a cheap Leica RF will be performance comparable with the M8 - If so, why would anybody buy the cheapo?

Its a conundrum isn't it!

All will be revealed at Photokina.

Les Olson Senior Member • Posts: 2,081
Re: I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

speenth wrote:

Interesting, level-headed stuff. However, if the low-cost RF accepts
M-lenses, produces images technically comparable with the M8 and
proves reliable, I'd be concerned for the future of the M8. Sales are
already faltering. Who'd continue to buy it?

Leica do have a track-record of continuing to make niche cameras for very small niches (eg, the film MP), so they might introduce a lower cost digital RF and still continue the M8. The problem is that, as you say, it is hard to see what niche the M8 would be occupying. However, to my eye the OP's story has the ring of truth, because it makes far more commercial sense to discontinue the M8 (given it's sales record), have an APS-C sensor RF for $1-2K aimed at serious amateurs and sell the 36 x 24 sensor RF to professionals for (?) $7K when it is developed.

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tweedle Veteran Member • Posts: 4,480
But if you look ahead...

speenth wrote:

MartinCohn wrote:

I was told by a very reliable source. Leica wants to expand it's
sales in their camera and lens divisions. Making an RF camera that is
affordable, ($1000 - $2,000) and lenses that are more affordable ..."

... if the low-cost RF accepts
M-lenses, produces images technically comparable with the M8 and
proves reliable, I'd be concerned for the future of the M8. Sales are
already faltering. Who'd continue to buy it? The M8 has little going
for it except brand name, physical dimensions and the RF concept. The
cheap RF would have all those attributes too!

If the new 'M-mini' will carry the same 1.3x crop sensor as the M8 (and I would expect that), you could be just right here.

However, a M9 for FF might be in the wings to be released in a couple of years - which would mean an absolutely perfect upgrade path for the many folks that could have been drawn to Leica by the 'mini' in the meantime.

And even if sales of the M8 would lie low for some time(while everyone's waiting for the FF-model), the 'mini' would generate more lens sales in the meantime as well.

Doesn't sound all that stupid to me

Dodi73
Dodi73 Senior Member • Posts: 1,986
What if...

Hi guys

what if also Zeiss would finally reveal an affordable RF (maybe FF) camera?
Wouldn't be a dream?
--
All the best
I'm on the NIK side of photography.

Les Olson Senior Member • Posts: 2,081
Re: What if...

They have said "no ... at least not yet" - citing the angle of incidence issues and implying that they will only go digital when they can do 36 x 24 RF digital (at Ikon prices? ... yum). See http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B9/Contents-Frame/51174405A82B6ADCC125722900400C68 about half way down.
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Nikonparrothead Veteran Member • Posts: 5,716
Re: But if you look ahead...

Hmm, Leica introduces a similar camera meant to be less expensive than its current rangefinder offering -- isn't that how the M2 was born?

If much of the R&D costs on marrying digital with M-mount lenses has been recouped, it's certainly possible that Leica could come out with a lower cost M-mount digital. After all, the original RD-1 came out in the $3k range and was selling in the mid $2k range before it was discontinued. With a little higher volume production from Leica than Epson-Seiko (I know, Leica and high volume aren't typically associated with each other), $2k is reasonable. Packaged with a 50mm Summarit for an affordable $3,200 to $3,500 US.

Whether they use an older sensor with a 1.5 crop, or the current 1.3 crop is a cost issue -- others than me could ballpark the cost difference between the two.

Now, as an owner of an M8 that's still in its first year of use, would I be miffed a little? Maybe. But as long as Leica continues to support the M8 on service (something that Epson has said it isn't going to do after 5 years (and counting down)) I won't be wildly disappointed.

Viewfinder variations, lens compatibility, battery type RAW vs Jpeg only, all those could factor into cost.

It will make an interesting show.

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tweedle Veteran Member • Posts: 4,480
Re: What if...

Dodi73 wrote:

what if also Zeiss would finally reveal an affordable RF (maybe FF)
camera?
Wouldn't be a dream?

It would be strange if Zeiss' camera & lens partner Cosina wasn't already considering a digital RF to secure the future sales of Zeiss and Voigtländer M-lenses.

The ZM-lenses from Zeiss seem to be a highly active business area with now 13 different lenses designed and in production. These lenses can't all be meant for analog capture only.

A new digital platform would possibly emerge in the shape and form of Zeiss Ikon, Voigtländer and maybe even a few more other brands.

My guess is, that a camera will not emerge untill FF-technology with these lenses is possible at a realistic price point. That is sub $2k for the ZI and a lot less for the Voigtländer version.

tweedle Veteran Member • Posts: 4,480
Re: But if you look ahead...

Nikonparrothead wrote:

... $2k is reasonable. Packaged with a 50mm Summarit for an
affordable $3,200 to $3,500 US.

I guess this is the only dpreview forum where words like 'reasonable' and 'affordable' are being used in connection to such numbers

Dodi73
Dodi73 Senior Member • Posts: 1,986
Re: But if you look ahead...

Well.. (and just to smile a bit about money)

in the other hand I can tell you the simplest teflon O-ring you put around whatever shaft in my company cost 70$ EACH ONE (!!!) Just imagine a Leica M done with everything costing like that...
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All the best
I'm on the NIK side of photography.

tissunique Veteran Member • Posts: 3,308
Re: I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

The M8 is still only for a Leica-fan niche market and as a camera I believe has not followed in the Leica tradition (for example, not full frame) and is way over-priced. I use both Canon & Nikon but hanker strongly after a walkabout small RF camera with excellent image quality. At the price mentioned I would be very, very interested (I also think that Nikon has something up its sleeve...). With the range of lenses available out there from Voigtlander and Leica one could budget within one's capabilities, i.e. go for expensive Leica glass or... It's a clever move that will shift more lenses and get a lot more people using Leica - probably including me!
Tony

rexythegreat2 Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

Hi all.

Like Martin, I've got similar info as well. Am visiting Tokyo right now and I was at the Leica boutique a few days ago. Probed for some Leica 'news', and my source tells me that 'something else...something different...' (since I asked, 'R10? M9?') is coming out at Photokina - I believe could be that mini-rangefinder that has been brought up.

My source says that 'what I believe to be the R10' may 'be late'. We'll see, since Martin's source suggests otherwise, plus I think it makes perfect sense to announce the new R at Photokina anyway. Not like the camera will need to reach the market immediately (perhaps this is what my source meant by 'be late').

Finally, my source also tells me that it is unlikely that Leica would continue with the 3/4 system. I did not hear much about the development of the M series.

Rex

l_objectif
l_objectif Forum Pro • Posts: 21,401
Re: A sub $2k Leica RF?

Don't forget the high cost of the lenses that any Leica system needs!....

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tweedle Veteran Member • Posts: 4,480
Re: I know what is coming from Leica at Photokina

tissunique wrote:

I use both Canon & Nikon but hanker strongly after a walkabout small
RF camera with excellent image quality. At the price mentioned
I would be very, very interested

Me too.

(I also think that Nikon has something up its sleeve...).

That's what Thom and others say. I don't remember anyone mentioning exchangeable lenses for the Nikon APS-sensored compact, however.

If this high-end compact segment is finally opened (and boy, have we been waiting...), others manufacturers might follow soon.

Only too bad, Sigma didn't get the DP1 just right already.

With the range of lenses available out there from Voigtlander and
Leica one could budget within one's capabilities, i.e. go for
expensive Leica glass or... It's a clever move that will shift more
lenses and get a lot more people using Leica - probably including me!

Lowering the treshold at the Leica gate just i notch

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