17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

Started Jul 30, 2008 | Discussions
baskara Forum Member • Posts: 72
17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

After looking at some pictures of buildings in this page:
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/review/2008/07/30/8930.html

I think 17-55 is not so great at the edge compared with 24-70. Or, is it because of the camera?

Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin Forum Member • Posts: 65
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

baskara wrote:

After looking at some pictures of buildings in this page:
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/review/2008/07/30/8930.html

I think 17-55 is not so great at the edge compared with 24-70. Or, is
it because of the camera?

Thanks for the link...

This is a very interesting review, and the first truly effective real-world comparison I see between these 2 pro mid-range zooms solutions, DX vs FX. IQ-wise, the 24-70/D700 toasts the 17-55/D300 on both sides, and the noise comparisons are telling, too. If results shown here are genuine, I would be confident to shoot landscape up to 1600 or perhaps even 3200 ISOs on a D700... This page is a real FX seller for me...

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Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin
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gonzalikus Contributing Member • Posts: 787
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

To see a real difference you have to zoom in. The colors in the only thing that differ to me from a simple look.... looking at the corners at 100% then u see a difference. It would be interesting to see this comparison with 2 RAW files.

As for the previous post comment:

I would be confident to shoot landscape up to
1600 or perhaps even 3200 ISOs on a D700...

I never understand how can you shoot lanscape at high ISO, use a tripod if you want real good landscape results.

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Gonzalo

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Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin Forum Member • Posts: 65
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

gonzalikus wrote:
To see a real difference you have to zoom in. The colors in the only
thing that differ to me from a simple look.... looking at the corners
at 100% then u see a difference. It would be interesting to see this
comparison with 2 RAW files.

As for the previous post comment:

I would be confident to shoot landscape up to
1600 or perhaps even 3200 ISOs on a D700...

I never understand how can you shoot lanscape at high ISO, use a
tripod if you want real good landscape results.

I always use a tripod, but with high-iso digital perfs, I can choose a speed/aperture setting (for DOF and precise exposure length) and + - stick to it while playing with sensitivity. It's not and end by itself, but a new mean to an end... Or a least a new latitude of settings I can profit from...

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Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin
http://www.imagesdebretagne.com

burkm Regular Member • Posts: 394
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

Really ?

I hardly detect any differences between both picture galeries D700 / D300 even on the pixel peeper level.

Most of it is slight but visible differences in focus and exposure, but no real IQ differences. The D700 images are somewhat darker and in some pictures (flowers) are less sharp too.

If You compare the same sections of each picture side by side or switching directly between both, I rather would suggest that I even liked some of the D300 pictures better, i.e. the flower shot or the hand rail.

If this were been done without knowledge of the underlying cameras and lenses it would end up randomly.

Even looking at the comparable pictures (architecture) of the 16-85 on D300 and to 24-70 on D700 does not provide any clue about visible differences.

The left lower corner has some fine detail (flowers, stone surfaces etc.) which look almost identical to me, I would even give a slight edge to the 16-85 against the 24-70 in this corner. Overall practically equal in terms of IQ.
The D700 picture is somewhat darker again.

And I don't see any reasonable indication of different noise levels here either, even in the shadows or in the sky.

But ... everyone probably sees what he wants to see in those pictures ;-))

maljo@inreach.com Veteran Member • Posts: 8,159
D700 looks a bit sharper, more detailed, nicer

I only looked at the first images of the buildings.
Loaded into Photoshop and examined at 100%.
The D700 looks a bit better to me.
Lens or camera?

This is my experience in the real world, as well.
I like the D3 and would pick it every time over
the D300, which I also own. Not a big difference,
though.

maljo

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burkm Regular Member • Posts: 394
Re: D700 looks a bit sharper, more detailed, nicer

If You look at the translated pages the author of the review could not find anything really different between those cameras tested (D3/D700/D300) in terms of resolution and IQ. The lenses used made more of a difference as stated.

Except for eventually somewhat lower noise at highest ISOs he saw no "real" differences which would make one switch between the formats.

I didn't either...

Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin Forum Member • Posts: 65
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

Close-ups with short DOF and bokeh comparisons are more prone to error and subjectivism in test procedure and interpretation. The architecture shots are less "readable" for me. So as a landscape photographer, the bridge shots are the most interesting...

And if a blind test would not be adequate, I can still see IQ difference here...

100% detail, border crop. Both at f/8 and 200 ISO. From here, the difference only grows with higher ISO settings... Like below at 1600 ISO...

The 17-55mm is a good lens, and we can see it here. Still, the 24-70 is a better one... Add to this the D700 high sensitivity capabilities... And this test would confirm what is generally admitted, on a wide to mid-range focal zoom, the D300 and 17-55 are both good elements, but put together, their ensemble is inferior to D700/24-70.

With another range, say 70-200mm, the conclusion could differ.

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Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin
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burkm Regular Member • Posts: 394
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

As the author of that review stated in his conclusion:

This came out more of a lens test than about different formats, because I couldn't detect much of a relevant difference related to formats except for somewhat lower high ISO noise.

The German magazine "color foto" recently added some new test technologies for lens and camera testing (Kurtosis method, low contrast resolution measurements) to get a more "real" view about the optical capabilities of a piece of equipment. They took all relevant newer DSLRs in three categories and measured them for reconsideration of earlier results.

The measured noise and resolution figures for the D300 and the D3 came very close (or where almost identical) to each other and they where some of the best ever measured on a camera.

Especially the high ISO noise figures where surprisingly close to each other considering the differences of sensor formats (and costs).

Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin Forum Member • Posts: 65
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

burkm wrote:

As the author of that review stated in his conclusion:
This came out more of a lens test than about different formats,
because I couldn't detect much of a relevant difference related to
formats except for somewhat lower high ISO noise.

The German magazine "color foto" recently added some new test
technologies for lens and camera testing (Kurtosis method, low
contrast resolution measurements) to get a more "real" view about the
optical capabilities of a piece of equipment. They took all relevant
newer DSLRs in three categories and measured them for reconsideration
of earlier results.

The measured noise and resolution figures for the D300 and the D3
came very close (or where almost identical) to each other and they
where some of the best ever measured on a camera.
Especially the high ISO noise figures where surprisingly close to
each other considering the differences of sensor formats (and costs).

What I can see in this test and what is usually admitted is there is at least a 1 stop difference in noise/ISO ratio in favor of FX. But moreover, the point of this test for me is to compare Nikon systems, not just elements... And as a system, what I see here is a clear FX winner confirmation in this focal range.

And believe me, as it costs me a lot more, and I have no status complex, it's kind of a pain.

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Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin
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johnnymcclung
johnnymcclung Senior Member • Posts: 2,659
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

This test is not a fair way to test the sensor since it's two different lenses. The 17-55 is not as sharp on the edges as the 24-70. Now, from a simple FOV test on available lenses... it's a valid test and shows that the D700 w/ 24-70 is superior.

Look at the lower right edge of the first set of images compared... the D700 with the 24-70 spanks it...

If we were to compare the sensors and resolving power... you have to use the same lens... and you have to use RAW with the same photoshop workflow...

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ebski Regular Member • Posts: 392
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

is anyone surprised that a $4700 camera/lens combo performs better than a $3000 one?

Michael Oersigh Senior Member • Posts: 2,098
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

The D700 combo looks a fair bit sharper up close and more one dimensional, given the age of both d300 and 17-55 that's pretty good and I would still go for the D300 combo mainly because of the quality of the 24-70.

Not much of a difference at the end of the day.

Mike

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Michael Oersigh Senior Member • Posts: 2,098
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

I take it back the D300 combo is actually showing finer levels of sharpness and there's not much real term difference between the two except the IQ compression in the 24-70.

Mike

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BRJR Forum Pro • Posts: 13,641
Thanks

baskara :

Thanks, for taking the time to post and share this link.

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BRJR ....(LOL, some of us are quite satisfied as Hobbyists ..)

baskara wrote:

After looking at some pictures of buildings in this page:
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/review/2008/07/30/8930.html

I think 17-55 is not so great at the edge compared with 24-70. Or, is
it because of the camera?

 BRJR's gear list:BRJR's gear list
Nikon D700 Leica M9 Nikon AF Nikkor 14mm f/2.8D ED Nikon AF Fisheye-Nikkor 16mm f/2.8D Nikon AF Nikkor 20mm f/2.8D +21 more
FrithjofA Senior Member • Posts: 1,060
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin wrote:

Thanks for the link...

This is a very interesting review, and the first truly effective
real-world comparison I see between these 2 pro mid-range zooms
solutions, DX vs FX. IQ-wise, the 24-70/D700 toasts the 17-55/D300 on
both sides, and the noise comparisons are telling, too

Really, you must look at different galleries. The difference are only marginal. you also should factor in the diffence in the lens chacteristics. Comments like "toasting on both sides" reveal that you did never investiagte the IQ of a lens. A lens needs only produce a sharp image in the focal plane! Thats a comon mistake in judging "edge" sharpness between lense. You must make sure that both edged are in the focal plane. Otherwise you are comparting different bokeh rather then lens sharpness. In the images! In particular, the 17-55DX has a different DOF characteristics than other lenses. You get tack sharp edges, but you need to know how the focus correctly!

High ISO and landscape: you must be kidding. I have problems with my landscape pictures with ISO 100 already which gives me much to short exposure time.

The D700 is a fine camera, but the pictures present in the link ensures me again not the buy it.

Saint Yves Contributing Member • Posts: 592
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

Pierre Arnaud

looking at you gallery I think you know more about landscape photography than you get credit for!

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Yves

Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin Forum Member • Posts: 65
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

FrithjofA wrote:

Really, you must look at different galleries. The difference are only
marginal. you also should factor in the diffence in the lens
chacteristics. Comments like "toasting on both sides" reveal that you
did never investiagte the IQ of a lens. A lens needs only produce a
sharp image in the focal plane! Thats a comon mistake in judging
"edge" sharpness between lense. You must make sure that both edged
are in the focal plane. Otherwise you are comparting different bokeh
rather then lens sharpness. In the images! In particular, the 17-55DX
has a different DOF characteristics than other lenses. You get tack
sharp edges, but you need to know how the focus correctly!

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=28788076

High ISO and landscape: you must be kidding. I have problems with my
landscape pictures with ISO 100 already which gives me much to short
exposure time.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=28787733

The D700 is a fine camera, but the pictures present in the link
ensures me again not the buy it.

Good for you, I guess. But if my first comment was a bit on the enthusiastic side (you got to love buttered toasts), I still stand by my point... As a system in this framing range, D700+24-70 shows quite evidently better sharpness overall and at least 1 stop noise/ISO ratio advantage over D300/17-55.

Now you can evaluate if you're ready to pay for that difference regarding your priorities. As for me and the photography I practice in, well, being ready to upgrade my system, I have a 17-55mm to sell...

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Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin
http://www.imagesdebretagne.com

Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin Forum Member • Posts: 65
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

Yves, you got me blushing, and on my way to my bank to get that credit for...

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Pierre-Arnaud Bonraisin
http://www.imagesdebretagne.com

burkm Regular Member • Posts: 394
Re: 17-55 on D300 vs 24-70 on D700

Quite true.

This review started as a comparison between two different formats D700/D2 against D300.

It actually turned out out to be more of a lens test.
Never thought that the 17-55 is really THAT bad !

Ugly !

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