Anyone shoot indoor sports (basketball, volleyball) with the 450D?

I am looking at the 450D and I would sure like some feedback as to how it performs at photographing sports (moving objects...) If someone has experience with this, what lens do you find that is best? I like everything that I read about this camera... I am a beginner coming from the P&S track, but I'm ready to "dig deeper" and learn how to take better shots. Thank you in advance...
Cheers,
Annette

The lens you pick will have the greatest effect on how well you indoor sports pics come out. Not the camera. I think the XSi will do fine (I have the XTi and have seen great pics from this camera with the right lens).

I too am shopping around. In my research on this board and talking to some local photographers, f/2.8 is the slowest you want to go for indoor sports like basketball and volleyball. You need a fast lens, i.e. wide aperture, in order to get the shutter speeds you need to freeze the action. The question is how much do you want to spend?

Canon 85 f/1.8 is good and cheap ($350) if you are close to the action (baseline, under the net, by the sidlines), but if you are up on bleachers, it may be too short.

Canon 70-200 f/2.8 L is highly regarded, but the f/2.8 version is $1100. The f/4 version (at $600) may be (usually is) too slow for dimly lit gyms.

Unfortunately for indoor sports, there doesn't seem to be a silver bullet out there. If you want a fast lens, you will have to spend a lot on fast glass (unless you can get close to the action).

Check out the Canon SLR Lens forum - do a search there. This topic is often discussed.

Good luck.

P.S. If you didn't already know, IS only helps with the movement/shaking of the camera, not the movement of fast moving subjects.

Seems very reasonable price for this lens for indoor graduation/Sports photos.....I'm seriously thinking about getting it.....cheapest $695 new at J&R Photo.....

Annette G wrote:

I am looking at the 450D and I would sure like some feedback as to
how it performs at photographing sports (moving objects...) If
someone has experience with this, what lens do you find that is best?
I like everything that I read about this camera... I am a beginner
coming from the P&S track, but I'm ready to "dig deeper" and learn
how to take better shots. Thank you in advance...

As Rico1204 said, the lens is the key to indoor sports photgraphy. Any decent dSLR will work. Image stabilization will not help you for what you want to accomplish. I agree that the 85mm f/1.8 is probably the best low cost option. You may actually want to consider the 400D(XTi) instead of the 450D if money is an issue. The image quality isn't that much different and you can squeeze a few more RAW images before the buffer fills. You will probably want to shoot RAW eventually because it allows much more control over the final image.

A lot depends on how close to the action you will be. Whatever you decide, get the fastest lens you can afford. Look for lenses that are f/1.2, f/1.4, f/1.8/ f/2, f/2.8. Anything slower than f/2.8 will make it very hard to shoot sports indoors.

Hope that helps a little.

Stage your shot if possible. Not always the case in sports when you want to catch a dramatic shot or event. If you just want a shot of player X doing something approach them and stage it while the crowd is in the background. The more control you can have the better the shot can turn out. The closer you can get to the action the better and position yourself in a good spot (especially if you are using something like 80mm lens) and be really patient. I have found the best shots are when you can see the eyes clearly - they can tell a whole story when they are fixated on that game winning goal. A very good lens, good position, patients and a bit of luck will give you a great shot.

If you are trying to catch action as it happens it is very difficult unless you spend some serious bucks on a good lens. I have taken many... many action shots in a dimly lite arena - very few turned out good. I was happy if 3 shots turned out just OK on a 24 role of film. Now that I use a digital camera I want the most Frames Per Second and I crank out the shots like mad on a fast high quality lens. The cost to get that prefect shot is virturally nothing with a digital camera.

If you are trying to sell your photos then do spend the money on a good lens. Even if you stage a shot or take them live the IQ is that much better. I as I do not make a living at photography I do bank all money I do earn and re-spend it on my hobby. I have had sport shots appear several magazines and even made the cover a couple of times. It has allowed me to feed my habit for many years.

JoMo1 wrote:

Seems very reasonable price for this lens for indoor
graduation/Sports photos.....I'm seriously thinking about getting
it.....cheapest $695 new at J&R Photo.....

not good if you shoot basketball though, to short to shoot far court basket and too long for any close action (and at f/2.8 bordering on too dim for high school).

85 1.8 is good from the corner for high school
70-200 2.8 non-IS is better if there is enough light.

if the new sigma 50 1.4 focuses as quickly as claimed it might be better than the 85 since you could sit closer in.

24-70L if there is enough light and you want to sit under the basket and do wider style.

for graduation, you might want IS, since, at least at times, everyone will be static.

If you are trying to sell your photos then do spend the money on a
good lens. Even if you stage a shot or take them live the IQ is that
much better. I as I do not make a living at photography I do bank
all money I do earn and re-spend it on my hobby. I have had sport
shots appear several magazines and even made the cover a couple of
times. It has allowed me to feed my habit for many years.

you have to be really careful if they are staged and you publish though, if it is not made clear that they are staged, the publication could end up embarassed and you could get on a blacklist....

just a word of warning in case you didn't realize and were submitting as photojournalism and not as staged portrait work.

I'm going to assume you are photographing your kids at HS level or below.

The reality is the camera in question has only ISO 1600. I've shot in a dozen gyms in the last few years. Not one of them was bright enough to shoot 2.8 and 1600 without flash (and by that I mean an external flash not the paltry flash in the camera).

A very common setting is ISO 1600 f2.0 and 1/400. Most gyms I've shot in are within a 1/3 stop of that.

Given that I would advise against a 2.8 lens. At least in Ohio, you are not allowed to use flash for volleyball and most other places I've heard of. So, I wouldn't count on a flash solution for that sport. Although it is allowed and often used for basketball.

Now, one of the keys to getting quality action shots - especially in low light is to stay within the lens' effective range. With a 50mm 1.8 lens ($75) I've found that to be about 10-15 feet. The 85mm 1.8 ($370) about 20-25 feet. 100mm 2.0 about 30 feet. So you have to be close to the action. Don't expect to use an 85mm 1.8 from 40 feet back in the stands and get quality shots.

Now, even with that correct lens, low light sports shooting is TOUGH. The depth-of-field (how much of the image is in focus) is very shallow. And the camera isn't magical - keeping focus requires skill you need to acquire and practice. Additionally, you won't be able to use the pre-fab modes. You'll have to learn how to set custom WB, how to shoot manual exposure and practice, practice, practice. So, my point is - don't expect to use a point-and-shoot mentality. It doesn't work that way. You have to be willing to learn how to shoot sports and practice, practice, practice. The right camera/lens is a requirement but not a guarantee of success. So, before you plunk down your hard earned cash on the camera and 85mm 1.8 (my recommendation for a lens - the most effective focal length) be sure you're willing to accept these facts.

And, in case you're wondering - I do happen to shoot basketball and volleyball. If you choose to shoot sports make sure you take advice from people that actually shoot those sports.

bronxbombers wrote:

JoMo1 wrote:

Seems very reasonable price for this lens for indoor
graduation/Sports photos.....I'm seriously thinking about getting
it.....cheapest $695 new at J&R Photo.....

not good if you shoot basketball though, to short to shoot far court
basket and too long for any close action (and at f/2.8 bordering on
too dim for high school).

85 1.8 is good from the corner for high school
70-200 2.8 non-IS is better if there is enough light.
if the new sigma 50 1.4 focuses as quickly as claimed it might be
better than the 85 since you could sit closer in.
24-70L if there is enough light and you want to sit under the basket
and do wider style.

for graduation, you might want IS, since, at least at times, everyone
will be static.

but do take seriously when I say IF there is enough light for the 2.8 lenses, they sound fast, but as John says below, you need fast shutters for sports and bewlo D1 college lighting is often rough (even D1 college it can be rough).

I appreciate all of your comments. I loved the volleyball/basketball shots...what camera do you use for those? It is exactly what I would like to learn to do (and I have many opportunities to practice!!) I think that I will get the 85 mm 1.8 lens and go from there. I really like the XSi, although Costco has a great deal of an Xti right now. After doing some more research, I'm looking forward to being a part of this forum. I'm very excited about my first DSLR camera!

You're welcome.

These shots were taken with a 1dmkIII. But the XTi ans XSi are both quite capable cameras.

I'd like to highlight something though - these shots were all taken from the floor, not the stands. I want to highlight something from my previous post - the effective range for the 85mm is about 20-25 feet. That is not very far. In volleyball you need to be right off the net for the lens to cover the far side of the court. You'll also find within that range the framing is VERY tight. By HS age you'll find if you stay inside that range many of your shots will not be full body (the camera I use has a 1.3 crop factor vs. the 1.6 of the cameras you're going to use so more of the subject is visible in the pictures I shoot).

For basketball 25 feet isn't much. If you're shooting from the baseline then you can't really get quality at the half court line. And if you're at the corner of the baseline and your subject is outside the arc around the other corner you'll find the quality of those shots to be lacking as well. Shooting from the stands will be VERY limiting as to the shots you can get. With that lens the only decent shots you'll get is the point guard coming up the floor with the ball and some shots of your team defending around the perimiter. Almost every other shot will be either too far away or will have your player facing away. Besides action in the shots I posted, with the exception of 1, they all clearly show faces. That's key to good sports shots. To get faces you have to be in the right position.

So, I just caution you before you spend your money. Getting good shots from the stands can be VERY difficult and you'll be very limited in your shot selection because of the way players are facing and because of how far away from the action you are.

So far there are 3 keys to success:
1. Gaining experience and skill as a sports shooter.
2. Having the right gear - right camera and right lens for the job

3. Having the proper positioning and access. Don't underestimate this one. Especially for low light sports this is essential.

Best of luck to you!

I really appreciate your advice. I did notice the faces in your pictures and that is what I liked best about them. I will be shooting in HS gyms mostlly, and I probably can get down close; but I will try to get a better lens to start with. Then, like you said, I'll practice a lot! I can see from what you said how important the positioning is... I had one other question for you... do you shoot raw? What is your experience with that?

The only time I shoot raw for sports is if the particular lighting is such that a custom white balance is impossible. You see, lights cycle - they aren't a constant temperature. Some older lighting cycles over a very broad temperature range. If there are a lot of light fixtures, the fields overlap and you still get a pretty good average temperature. BUT, if the lights cycle like that AND they're far apart then you'll have a very great range in color temperatures. This results in every shot you take having a different color cast to it. In those situations I'll shoot RAW because I can adjust the white balance when I process. But that's a pain in the butt. AND it's only about 5% of the gyms I've ever shot in. Very infrequent. The other 95% a custom white balance works fine.

Other people are also a proponent of shooting raw and deliberately under-exposing the shot - thus allowing them to use a slower lens. I.E. using a 2.8 lens 1 stop under exposed and then bumping the exposure in RAW. IMO such a thing is only good in emergencies. You will ALWAYS get better results if your exposure is correct in camera. Any adjustment you make in post processing, even RAW will give worse results than if you got the exposure correct in the first place. How much worse depends on a lot of factors. But if you have the right lens and you know what you're doing there's no reason you should have to do that in the majority of cases (there are always exceptions - the one time a year you shoot in a complete cave of a gym maybe - not worth buying a more expensive camera or lens for). And of course, raw conversion is another step in the workflow - so it takes you more time.

In reality, most gyms have very consistent lighting on the court (within about 1/2 stop all around the court). It might be poor, but it's consistent. Because it's consistent you can set a custom WB and dial in a manual exposure and be VERY confident the vast majority of your shots will be exposed properly (within 1/3 stop) and have good white balance.

By the way - here's an advanced tip on setting a custom WB - make sure you do so with a shutter speed around 1/30. This will allow the lights to cycle and give you an average WB. Using a very fast 1/400 shutter speed and you're likely to get a more skewed WB. Some of your shots will be perfect but a lot will have a more pronounced color cast.

I shoot these two sports ALL the time but only on the Colligiate level

The lighting is much better than other places but I started with the XT and most of my best and favorite shots were with it. DOn't worry aobut high FPS ... just wait and get the 1 good shot at a time.

I use the 70-200 2.8 but occasionally in really horrible lighting situations it isn't ideal... in those go for the 85 1.8 which will serve you well as it is really long on a crop sensor.

I would suggest that over the 70-200 2.8 IS this lens is more for if you are going to be very active with your photography... as it costs 1600$

Not sure what else to say... ISO 1600 isn't that bad or that noisy with the right glass and exposure! make sure you use the right WB setting...
it saves a lot of time in post processing

IF lighting is so terrible that you have to underexpose shots to get them with a higher setting change to RAW and it will work out a little better for you... not much but you do what you have to do

Annette G wrote:

I really appreciate your advice. I did notice the faces in your
pictures and that is what I liked best about them. I will be
shooting in HS gyms mostlly, and I probably can get down close; but I
will try to get a better lens to start with. Then, like you said,
I'll practice a lot! I can see from what you said how important the
positioning is... I had one other question for you... do you shoot
raw? What is your experience with that?

I'm not sure, but RAW might tend to clog up the buffer on your camera, maybe not quite as bad for basketball as with some others.

Even on my 20D it could clog up at times so I didn't always do RAW+JPG until I got my 40D.

Not sure if it is any use, but I have a bunch of bball pics at college level with all the lens and exposure info and all here:
http://skibum4.smugmug.com/Sports/482153
and here:
http://skibum4.smugmug.com/Sports/482152

unfortuneately I think next to none are with the 855mm 1.8, those ones are not up. It's far and away mostly the 70-200 2.8 non-IS (which might not let in enough light for HS)

All of you have been so helpful and I have just spent a long time poring over the different posts about the different lenses for sports...I am definitely feeling better about getting the right lens for what I want to do (basketball, etc)...so...where is a good place to buy lenses? Do you have a favorite place, or go for sales, or ebay?

I am currently going to check into the 85mm 1.8 and would like to check on the 17-55 2.8 as well. The 70-200 2.8 sounds great but I may wait and save up for that one while I'm learning.

I'm going to get either the XTI or the XSi with the kit lens and then add another lens that will do what I need and get to shooting and learning!!!

I have seen packages with the XTi and the XSi featuring both the kit lens (18-55 mm IS) AND either the 75-300mm or a 55-250mm IS. I have not seen much about these two "package deal" lenses. Are they any good?

I like B&H and Adorama.

The 55-250 IS is leagues better than the 75-300. Most people warn to stay away from the 75-300. The 70-300 IS is also very good ($600) However, these are too slow for indoor basketball.

Oooh, boy I just found reviews on the two "package deal" lenses and they are NOT what I want, because I definitely want to learn to shoot basketball well. All the guy at Best Buy did was tell me "how much money I could save" and he apparently didn't know anything about the lense performance. I sure am thankful for this forum and especially all of the kind folks that have helped to point me in the right direction.

Thanks for the location tips, too. Now to search.....

Thanks to John_A_G, I learned the strengths and distance limitations of the 85 f/1.8 for basketball. This is the lens I use with the XTi for basketball; I continue to work on his advice, among others, and have an appreciation of just what I'm aiming for . . . thanks again, John_A_G.

shot taken off the dribble -- upper right color cast, no ball in photo, daughter's face partially blocked (focus is on face!), but it will do -- for now . . .

f/1.8, 1/400, ISO 1600, 0/3 EV, Center AF pt.

To Annette, Ed Yamanaka's pointers are useful in regard to the XTi in that "you can squeeze a few more RAW images before the buffer fills [over the XSi]. You will probably want to shoot RAW eventually because it allows much more control over the final image."

I received a second XTi today that I ordered online the morning after a recent price dip to $519 from J&R (I've ordered from jr.com twice before with great results, same with B&H -- now 3 orders from bhphotovideo.com) and noticed on jr.com that it sold out that same day.

It sounds like you'll appreciate either camera under consideration, with the right lenses for your purposes. Enjoy your dig into the learning process; many knowledgeable people here are quite generous with highly valuable information, I also recognize experienced posts from bronxbombers, and I thank them all.

Best regards,

Bonnie

http://flickr.com/photos/sbmgar/

John_A_G wrote:

You're welcome.

These shots were taken with a 1dmkIII. But the XTi ans XSi are both
quite capable cameras.

I'd like to highlight something though - these shots were all taken
from the floor, not the stands. I want to highlight something from
my previous post - the effective range for the 85mm is about 20-25
feet. That is not very far. In volleyball you need to be right off
the net for the lens to cover the far side of the court. You'll also
find within that range the framing is VERY tight. By HS age you'll
find if you stay inside that range many of your shots will not be
full body (the camera I use has a 1.3 crop factor vs. the 1.6 of the
cameras you're going to use so more of the subject is visible in the
pictures I shoot).

For basketball 25 feet isn't much. If you're shooting from the
baseline then you can't really get quality at the half court line.
And if you're at the corner of the baseline and your subject is
outside the arc around the other corner you'll find the quality of
those shots to be lacking as well. Shooting from the stands will be
VERY limiting as to the shots you can get. With that lens the only
decent shots you'll get is the point guard coming up the floor with
the ball and some shots of your team defending around the perimiter.
Almost every other shot will be either too far away or will have your
player facing away. Besides action in the shots I posted, with the
exception of 1, they all clearly show faces. That's key to good
sports shots. To get faces you have to be in the right position.

So, I just caution you before you spend your money. Getting good
shots from the stands can be VERY difficult and you'll be very
limited in your shot selection because of the way players are facing
and because of how far away from the action you are.

So far there are 3 keys to success:
1. Gaining experience and skill as a sports shooter.
2. Having the right gear - right camera and right lens for the job
3. Having the proper positioning and access. Don't underestimate
this one. Especially for low light sports this is essential.

Best of luck to you!

Hi Bonnie... I like your pictures and am wondering what camera/lens combo that you used in Israel... beautiful shots. I am so grateful to everyone on this forum that has taken time to help me... I can't wait to get my hands on a camera and begin shooting!! I have always wanted to capture great basketball pictures and I've paid careful attention to all of the posts that I received and have already learned quite a bit. I'm looking forward to working with the 85mm1.8 lens. Thank you, also, for your comments!
Cheers...
Annette