I have changed my mind.

Started Mar 23, 2008 | Discussions
RafaelD7
RafaelD7 Senior Member • Posts: 2,033
Not me. (Not yet?)

I have been playing around with NX after I got it free with the D300. I still do not feel like changing - I am too used to my workflow in ACR/PSCS3. The latest version of ACR has a few great tools that are not available in NX (Recover, Fill Light, Clarity, Vibrance) and nice sharpening controls (Masking, Detail). I am not saying that you cannot do that in NX, just that I like the way those tools work in ACR and I have come to understand what they do and how to use them to my advantage.

It is true that the starting point in ACR may not beas close to the final outcome as it may be in NX, since ACR does not use the info from the camera's settings,as NX does. But, you can tweak the defaults in ACR to do a pretty good job of that.

Anyway, I am not ruling it out altogether, I am only saying I am not ready to switch yet.

-- hide signature --

Regards,

Rafael

http://www.pbase.com/aviles
-----------------------------------------
'I only wanted Uncle Vern standing by his new car (a Hudson) on a clear
day. I got him and the car. I also got a bit of Aunt Mary's laundry, and
Beau Jack, the dog, peeing on a fence, and a row of potted tuberous
begonias on the porch and 78 trees and a million pebbles in the driveway
and more. It's a generous medium, photography.' Lee Friedlander

 RafaelD7's gear list:RafaelD7's gear list
Nikon D850 Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm F2.8G IF-ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 | C +1 more
Bob Quinn Senior Member • Posts: 2,204
Let's try both ways on a test file

I'm not saying Capture NX isn't better than ACR, but I would like to be convinced by visual evidence. Like Rafael, I'm used to ACR & CS3, and I'll stick to them unless someone shows me that Capture NX can give results I can't get with my workflow.

Steve, (or anyone else) do you have a NEF file you could post for some post processing? I'll do my best with ACR & CS3, maybe Rafael will too, and others of you could edit the same one with Capture NX.

This website will let you post files to share.

http://drop.io

DougAbbott New Member • Posts: 22
Re: Let's try both ways on a test file

That's great news.

Unfortunately, NX 1.3.x still doesn't recognize the D300 NEF files on my Leopard Mac. Like many Mac users we're anxiously awaiting Nikon's fix to this perpelxing problem.

GadgetBoy Regular Member • Posts: 345
Lightroom mainly, occaisional NX; maybe more in future

I use Lightroom now for most sorting and culling and RAW conversion of most shots. I rate images 5/5 when they are ones i might want to really spend time on and/or print at a large size. I have created an Export action to "export" the NEFs to a directory I set up for NX and then I have the option of using NX (obviously in parallel - the changes in one don't apply to the other).

I like the NX results quite a bit, but it is not intuitive to me and it frustrates me. Maybe future releases will improve things -- I don't even know if there are any releases on the horizon.

thanks for the thread,
Rob.
--
http://photo.robertokeefe.com

jbcrane
jbcrane Senior Member • Posts: 1,364
Re: I have changed my mind.

Hi Steve,

Glad to hear you've given Capture a closer look. I'm a firm believer in it for RAW conversions and still think it "mops the floor" with ACR ;-). Have fun.
--
Kind regards,
JBCrane, Shooter in Colorado.
http://jbcrane.zenfolio.com/
http://www.johncranephoto.com
Member ASMP, NPS
Husband. Dad. Dog lover. COG.

RafaelD7
RafaelD7 Senior Member • Posts: 2,033
What kind of Mac?

DougAbbott wrote:

That's great news.

Unfortunately, NX 1.3.x still doesn't recognize the D300 NEF files on
my Leopard Mac. Like many Mac users we're anxiously awaiting Nikon's
fix to this perpelxing problem.

Doug,

I have an Intel Mac (iMac 24", white) running Leopard 10.5.2 and NX opens my D300 NEF's just fine. The only problem I've had is with the upgrade - it stalls when it tries to download it from within NX. I went to the Nikon site, downloaded the upgrade myself and installed it. Problem is, the version number did not get updated and NX still wants to download the upgrade...

-- hide signature --

Regards,

Rafael

http://www.pbase.com/aviles
-----------------------------------------
'I only wanted Uncle Vern standing by his new car (a Hudson) on a clear
day. I got him and the car. I also got a bit of Aunt Mary's laundry, and
Beau Jack, the dog, peeing on a fence, and a row of potted tuberous
begonias on the porch and 78 trees and a million pebbles in the driveway
and more. It's a generous medium, photography.' Lee Friedlander

 RafaelD7's gear list:RafaelD7's gear list
Nikon D850 Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm F2.8G IF-ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 | C +1 more
Steve Bingham
OP Steve Bingham Forum Pro • Posts: 26,297
Re: Let's try both ways on a test file

Bob Quinn wrote:

I'm not saying Capture NX isn't better than ACR, but I would like to
be convinced by visual evidence. Like Rafael, I'm used to ACR & CS3,
and I'll stick to them unless someone shows me that Capture NX can
give results I can't get with my workflow.

Steve, (or anyone else) do you have a NEF file you could post for
some post processing? I'll do my best with ACR & CS3, maybe Rafael
will too, and others of you could edit the same one with Capture NX.

Bob, this is what I spent 2-3 hours doing. Using layers it was easy to see the changes - and why. What I found was that ACR frequently had clipping in one or more channels. One of my images had the Blue channel shadows clipped AT THE SAME TIME it was clipping the Red channel highlights. As I used to teach PS CS3 at the college, I am pretty aware of how to tweak ACR files. Could this file be "saved"? Sure, but with a LOT of work. More importantly, the histogram for the Capture file always looked better. Often times it was bi-module, where the ACR would be a simple bell. I would see a lot more contrast in mid-tone variations with Capture than with ACR. That's why the image seems to have a more 3D look.

Actually, I am not trying to convince anyone - just stating my own findings.

This website will let you post files to share.

http://drop.io

 Steve Bingham's gear list:Steve Bingham's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D7200 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-140mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-80mm F2.8-4E ED VR +20 more
Steve Bingham
OP Steve Bingham Forum Pro • Posts: 26,297
Re: I have changed my mind.

Something else. When comparing conversions I noticed that Capture was a little "rougher" textured - which suggested that it was using a little more sharpening than ACR. It took me a VERY long time to balance the files. Turning all sharpening off and all noise reduction off in both systems takes time. Although I could basically make both files appear almost identical in sharpness and noise reduction (now THAT was work) I seem to prefer the more aggressive sharpening of Capture in default mode as it really doesn't show until 100% - which means it probably won't show on large prints.

The kicker for me was the histograms. I HATE losing information.
By the way, Capture is still slow - even with my 3.5 G overclocked X6800 chip.
--
Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com
http://www.ghost-town-photography.com

 Steve Bingham's gear list:Steve Bingham's gear list
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Steve Bingham
OP Steve Bingham Forum Pro • Posts: 26,297
Figuring things out

I notice that when the Capture file is opened and then tweaked in Capture and then "opened with" PS CS3 that the EXIF data is very abbreviated - and missing shutter speed. True?
--
Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com
http://www.ghost-town-photography.com

 Steve Bingham's gear list:Steve Bingham's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D7200 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-140mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-80mm F2.8-4E ED VR +20 more
Flashlight Veteran Member • Posts: 7,894
Re: I have changed my mind.

I always find USM of Photoshop (in luminosity channel) is a tad better than CaptureNX. Often I export the tiff to CS3 just to apply sharpening.

-- hide signature --

Philip

Kaj E Veteran Member • Posts: 9,417
I'm glad you have seen the light (nt)

I believe in Capture for NEF conversions.
--
Kind regards
Kaj
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member

crazygold Contributing Member • Posts: 648
Re: I have changed my mind.

steve have u ever tried bibble?

 crazygold's gear list:crazygold's gear list
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Joves Regular Member • Posts: 158
Re: I'm glad you have seen the light (nt)

Well Im not on the Capture bandwagon yet. I have only started to play with the latest version. I still use ACR for now who knows I may convert yet.

 Joves's gear list:Joves's gear list
Nikon D810
LuvLatins Contributing Member • Posts: 749
Re: I have changed my mind.

What file are you editing (in ACR) if you are not editing the RAW file? I do not follow your statement above.

You are correct, I probably should have said that you are not getting all of the NEF features from the file that you are in NX. For example the Picture Control information from the camera is ignored by ARC. And the design on NX is to edit and STAY in the RAW editor not converting to another format to finish your editing. NX all edits are done in NX from start to finish.

Steve Bingham
OP Steve Bingham Forum Pro • Posts: 26,297
Re: I have changed my mind.

crazygold wrote:

steve have u ever tried bibble?

I was a Bibble fan for many years - for its pure speed!!! Now, with a VERY fast CPU, I am able to tolerate the slow speed of Capture. In fact, the "slow" speed has now become insignificant. More importantly, Bibble support is second to none. An excellent raw converter.

 Steve Bingham's gear list:Steve Bingham's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D7200 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-140mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-80mm F2.8-4E ED VR +20 more
Steve Bingham
OP Steve Bingham Forum Pro • Posts: 26,297
Re: I'm glad you have seen the light (nt)

Hey - that was MY story! :^) Take a serious look at the RGB histograms. Look for clipping on one or multiple channels.

Joves wrote:

Well Im not on the Capture bandwagon yet. I have only started to play
with the latest version. I still use ACR for now who knows I may
convert yet.

 Steve Bingham's gear list:Steve Bingham's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D7200 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-140mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-80mm F2.8-4E ED VR +20 more
jizzer Senior Member • Posts: 1,750
Thank you.

I've been using photoshop since 2.5, so to someone like me, most everything since ver.3 hasn't "blown me away" it's just little updates that they charge for. So the Adobe worship is quite silly to me. Adobe has competitors! And they don't give their advancements to Adobe!

But beyond all that... You'd think more people would just do a side by side comparison as you have. 2 pixs are worth thousands of words.

Anyway, another vote for NX here (for raw conversion to tiff, then it goes to photoshop)
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcovert

incoherent1 Regular Member • Posts: 425
Re: Let's try both ways on a test file

Steve Bingham wrote:

.... More importantly, the histogram for the
Capture file always looked better. Often times it was bi-module,
where the ACR would be a simple bell. I would see a lot more contrast
in mid-tone variations with Capture than with ACR. That's why the
image seems to have a more 3D look.....

I suspect this analysis is one of the key things that people react to in prefering CNX. Once this is identified, it is a pretty simple step to incorporate in an ACR workflow, with several options available (curves adjustment layer, LCE layer, image> adjust> shadow/highlight> midtone contrast, etc). Not to say that either process is better, just different tools.

On the issue of whether CNX understands the tonal response of the sensor as a raw converter, I don't know how an objective comparison can be made (not denying it, just don't know the science -(defer to Iliah!)). I do have suspicions about ACR, tho because of the issue of people trying to calibrate ACR coming up with consistent treatment of red channel hue and saturation across many sensor/lens/etc permutations.

Another key point, IMO, is the notion of intuitiveness. Having used photoshop since V2.5 LE, I can appereciate that the 'Adobe way' becomes a way of thinking that must be unlearned to use a different tool, and as such, CNX faces a possibly unjust bar of unfamiliarity. (But it is a fact of life that we 'are' accustomed to a thinking process.)

Final (minor) point on usm -- in Adobe R=pixels vs R=% in CNX for people wanting to compare.

 incoherent1's gear list:incoherent1's gear list
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anotherMike Veteran Member • Posts: 9,535
Re: I have changed my mind.

Congratulations from a Capture NX fan.

ACR/Lightroom never did it for me - too danged hard to get the frickin image to look like it did when I shot it, something that Capture NX gets right instantly.

-m

RafaelD7
RafaelD7 Senior Member • Posts: 2,033
Re: I have changed my mind.

LuvLatins wrote:

What file are you editing (in ACR) if you are not editing the RAW file? I do not follow your statement above.

You are correct, I probably should have said that you are not getting
all of the NEF features from the file that you are in NX. For
example the Picture Control information from the camera is ignored by
ARC. And the design on NX is to edit and STAY in the RAW editor not
converting to another format to finish your editing. NX all edits
are done in NX from start to finish.

OK, I understand now. Yes, NX uses all the information from the camera and ACR does not. I can get around that in ACR because I have been using it almost since it came out (and Photoshop even longer than that). I find that I would have to unlearn a lot of what I do now if I switched to NX. It is just a matter of having a set work process, which becomes intuitive (even though it involves three programs: Bridge, ACR, and PSCS3), and not wanting to climb yet another learning curve. If I were starting out, though, I would probably go with NX.

-- hide signature --

Regards,

Rafael

http://www.pbase.com/aviles
-----------------------------------------
'I only wanted Uncle Vern standing by his new car (a Hudson) on a clear
day. I got him and the car. I also got a bit of Aunt Mary's laundry, and
Beau Jack, the dog, peeing on a fence, and a row of potted tuberous
begonias on the porch and 78 trees and a million pebbles in the driveway
and more. It's a generous medium, photography.' Lee Friedlander

 RafaelD7's gear list:RafaelD7's gear list
Nikon D850 Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm F2.8G IF-ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 | C +1 more
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