C1 Pro v4.0.1 fixes A700 high ISO - examples

Started Feb 8, 2008 | Discussions
David Kilpatrick Veteran Member • Posts: 5,436
C1 Pro v4.0.1 fixes A700 high ISO - examples

Here it is the way Adobe Camera Raw sees it:

and here is how the newly released Capture One version 4.0.1 sees it:

These are both lightened to show up the difference in 'grain' (hardly a word you can use for the ACR result).

Full story with links to full size pBase examples:

http://photoclubalpha.com/2008/02/08/capture-one-v4-cures-a700-high-iso-confetti/

David

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Graham Best Veteran Member • Posts: 3,426
Re: C1 Pro v4.0.1 fixes A700 high ISO - examples

David,

Your example certainly looks convincing. I was unable to find a link to the original ARW file on your site. Do you plan to make the file available?

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Graham

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Keith Schmidt Veteran Member • Posts: 7,142
Very intersting David...

have you contacted anyone at Adobe with these samples? Certainly a huge difference in the black areas between the two, and hard to see how Adobe could ignore this (assuming they care at least a little about the Sony users).
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headofdestiny Veteran Member • Posts: 9,226
Re: Very intersting David...

It is driving me batty that Adobe is willing to fix this. I would buy Lightroom in a second if this was fixed.

MarkyM Senior Member • Posts: 1,035
Re: Very intersting David...

Keith Schmidt wrote:

have you contacted anyone at Adobe with these samples? Certainly a
huge difference in the black areas between the two, and hard to see
how Adobe could ignore this (assuming they care at least a little
about the Sony users).
--
Keith
http://www.pbase.com/themitty/
http://www.picasaweb.google.com/themitty

Anyone can contact Adobe.

I suggest we "stuff the ballot box".

Here is a link:

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

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DaddyBit Contributing Member • Posts: 544
Thanks for sharing, David

Comapring side by side, C1 definitely washed out details on wood making it look "painted". Looks like C1 does undercover NR on low-contrast dark tones. This results in posterized flat look.
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Ken_5D Forum Pro • Posts: 11,820
Re: C1 Pro v4.0.1 fixes A700 high ISO - examples

Cool.. it has to be getting harder for people to say Sony is over doing the NR and its all Bibble/Raw Therapee/ Capture one illusion.

I have a free upgrade coming.. I will be installing this very soon!!!!
------------
Ken - Happy A700 Owner
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

RichV Veteran Member • Posts: 6,182
David - a question on C1 v4

Are you working with any cRAW files in it? I'm asking because I'm experiencing a problem with them in v4. For example, I've got one folder with a little more than 400 cRAW files from an outing, last Saturday. It's not totally consistent, but in many of the cRAW files where there's clipping or blown highlights, v4 can't handle it - the areas come out as "pure" colors: usually a bright red for shadow-clipped pixels and red, yellow or blue for the highlights. I've been corresponding with P1 tech support (they're great, btw) and my current suspicion is that they didn't test the software on cRAW files. If you've got a "healthy range" of cRAW exposures, would you mind checking on this? Thanks.

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RichV Veteran Member • Posts: 6,182
Re: Thanks for sharing, David

I agree - take a look at the color of the lower whiskers, too.

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andrea buso Veteran Member • Posts: 3,319
Re: Thanks for sharing, David

DaddyBit wrote:

Comapring side by side, C1 definitely washed out details on wood
making it look "painted". Looks like C1 does undercover NR on
low-contrast dark tones. This results in posterized flat look.
--

I agree.

Also the tiger looks better. The fur and the wood is represented with more detail on the ACR sample.

The bohken looks some what better on the C1 sample, though that is subjective: one may prefer the "poitillized" dithering effect of C1 over the smudged chroma noise of ACR.

Over all the whole image looks better on ACR and probably once printed at a decent size will still do.

Noise is not a bad thing after all, it gives more depth and texture to an image and help the eye to get a better perception of details.

It is true that the noise in ACR is quite too smudged, though. maybe sharpening it a little will make it more "grain like" and more acceptable than the "coarse airbrush" stroke of C1.
Either way ACR or C1, are not the optimal solution.

OP David Kilpatrick Veteran Member • Posts: 5,436
Re: Thanks for sharing, David

DaddyBit wrote:

Comapring side by side, C1 definitely washed out details on wood
making it look "painted". Looks like C1 does undercover NR on
low-contrast dark tones. This results in posterized flat look.

Yes, there are problems with that, as pointed out in the article. However, the sharper the detail captured (this is a pretty typical soft example of low light shooting) the better C1 will work - and I have not done any fine tuning of settings.

The point is that whether a compromise between the two extremes is better or not, the A700 is not creating what we see in ACR. ACR is creating that. The posterized look may even be a failing of C1's camera profile.

David

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OP David Kilpatrick Veteran Member • Posts: 5,436
Re: David - a question on C1 v4

RichV wrote:

Are you working with any cRAW files in it? I'm asking because I'm
experiencing a problem with them in v4. For example, I've got one
folder with a little more than 400 cRAW files from an outing, last
Saturday. It's not totally consistent, but in many of the cRAW files
where there's clipping or blown highlights, v4 can't handle it - the
areas come out as "pure" colors: usually a bright red for
shadow-clipped pixels and red, yellow or blue for the highlights.
I've been corresponding with P1 tech support (they're great, btw) and
my current suspicion is that they didn't test the software on cRAW
files. If you've got a "healthy range" of cRAW exposures, would you
mind checking on this? Thanks.

I've been finding this problem on browsing my folders for more files to try. They have pixellated pure primary colours in the shadows and highlights. Also, try enough of them, and it crashes

David

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DaddyBit Contributing Member • Posts: 544
I wondering if Sony IDC is so bad that people constantly seeking for

reliable 3rd party RAW converter? The answer is important to me since I consider upgrade to A700. I shoot RAW exlusively and after tryout of almost all available RAW converters I landed on LR and satisfied with it now.

But seems that A700 is a different story than KM5D.

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OP David Kilpatrick Veteran Member • Posts: 5,436
Re: I wondering if Sony IDC is so bad that people constantly seeking for

DaddyBit wrote:

reliable 3rd party RAW converter? The answer is important to me since
I consider upgrade to A700. I shoot RAW exlusively and after tryout
of almost all available RAW converters I landed on LR and satisfied
with it now.

But seems that A700 is a different story than KM5D.

Sony IDC 2 is pretty good. The colour is optimum - no doubt there - and the granularity is coarser than C1 Pro, but there is no posterizing or flatterning or areas.

It also runs very fast indeed on my Mac system - far faster in every way than C1 or Lightroom, the only problem is it sends bloated 16-bit TIFFS to Photoshop, when all I need is a finished 8-bit output.

David

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RichV Veteran Member • Posts: 6,182
and don't forget ...

that IDC names TIFF's for transfer to PS totally different - in a separate number sequence, beginning with 1 - from the original file name; don't forget the cleanup when you're done!

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duprey26 Forum Member • Posts: 72
Re: David - a question on C1 v4

Rich,

I will second your problems. I'm in the process of uploading files for them to test. Let me know if you get any resolution with support. It definitely doesn't happen with regular RAW, just cRAW. I may be encouraged to switch back to regular RAW+JPEG.

Kevin

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mark_p Regular Member • Posts: 182
Re: C1 Pro v4.0.1 fixes A700 high ISO - examples

there is a lot of improvement to the shadow area

but I cant really see that much difference to the fur (except for the white patches which are darker)

I wonder why this is

OP David Kilpatrick Veteran Member • Posts: 5,436
Re: C1 Pro v4.0.1 fixes A700 high ISO - examples

mark_p wrote:

there is a lot of improvement to the shadow area
but I cant really see that much difference to the fur (except for the
white patches which are darker)

I wonder why this is

Frequency/contrast based NR algorithm is the answer - ACR preserves edge contrasts, but lets rip with big splodgy NR when it doesn't find them; C1 does the same, but smooths empty detail areas and then apparently adds noise. Seriously - based on examining lower ISO coversions, which can look worse than this in detailed areas, it appears to be adding controlled noise after applying heavy NR.

David

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mark_p Regular Member • Posts: 182
Re: C1 Pro v4.0.1 fixes A700 high ISO - examples

David Kilpatrick wrote:

mark_p wrote:

there is a lot of improvement to the shadow area
but I cant really see that much difference to the fur (except for the
white patches which are darker)

I wonder why this is

Frequency/contrast based NR algorithm is the answer - ACR preserves
edge contrasts, but lets rip with big splodgy NR when it doesn't find
them; C1 does the same, but smooths empty detail areas and then
apparently adds noise. Seriously - based on examining lower ISO
coversions, which can look worse than this in detailed areas, it
appears to be adding controlled noise after applying heavy NR.

after looking at the complete images you uploaded I was thinking the same but thought i was imagining it.

Ken_5D Forum Pro • Posts: 11,820
Re: C1 Pro v4.0.1 fixes A700 high ISO - examples

mark_p wrote:

David Kilpatrick wrote:

mark_p wrote:

there is a lot of improvement to the shadow area
but I cant really see that much difference to the fur (except for the
white patches which are darker)

I wonder why this is

Frequency/contrast based NR algorithm is the answer - ACR preserves
edge contrasts, but lets rip with big splodgy NR when it doesn't find
them; C1 does the same, but smooths empty detail areas and then
apparently adds noise. Seriously - based on examining lower ISO
coversions, which can look worse than this in detailed areas, it
appears to be adding controlled noise after applying heavy NR.

after looking at the complete images you uploaded I was thinking the
same but thought i was imagining it.

Add Noise? What is the proof od that... I haven't looked at home in the calibrated monitor but adding noise vs just not removing it would be a very strange feature choice. I will have to look closer but is it possible that we just have another way or converting noise that is there?

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