2 serious bugs with 3D tracking and metering

Started Dec 1, 2007 | Discussions
jp Senior Member • Posts: 1,151
2 serious bugs with 3D tracking and metering

1) If you use ASF-C with 3D tracking then the metering (spot/matrix) always supposes that the subject is in the middle of the frame instead of under the selected AF point.

2) As the AF point tracks across the screen, the metering does not follow the AF point

This is a serious error that could lead to badly exposed pictures when using 3D tracking.

the first problem is worse than the second one but both should be resolved. Knowning Nikon, I doubt that they will ever adress it.

As a workaround you can take the following measures
always use the center point as a starting point for 3D tracking and

always have cf-f1 on when using 3D tracking: this locks the exposure of your subject when you alf press the shutter

It does not solve the problem completely because when the lighting changes, your subject will be incorrectly exposed anyway.

Sorry guys, I really whish my first post since I recieved my D300 would have been more in the style of "Yeehaaaa" but helas

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Raymond Bradlau
Raymond Bradlau Veteran Member • Posts: 5,736
Re: 2 serious bugs with 3D tracking and metering

Interesting, I would not have expected this. any custom function to change it to follow the AF point?

regards
Ray

jp wrote:

1) If you use ASF-C with 3D tracking then the metering (spot/matrix)
always supposes that the subject is in the middle of the frame
instead of under the selected AF point.
2) As the AF point tracks across the screen, the metering does not
follow the AF point
This is a serious error that could lead to badly exposed pictures
when using 3D tracking.

the first problem is worse than the second one but both should be
resolved. Knowning Nikon, I doubt that they will ever adress it.

As a workaround you can take the following measures
always use the center point as a starting point for 3D tracking and
always have cf-f1 on when using 3D tracking: this locks the exposure
of your subject when you alf press the shutter
It does not solve the problem completely because when the lighting
changes, your subject will be incorrectly exposed anyway.

Sorry guys, I really whish my first post since I recieved my D300
would have been more in the style of "Yeehaaaa" but helas

-- hide signature --
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jeminijoseph Veteran Member • Posts: 6,550
May be you are right

The first issue must be causing the over exposure. I will try that tomorrow

jp wrote:

1) If you use ASF-C with 3D tracking then the metering (spot/matrix)
always supposes that the subject is in the middle of the frame
instead of under the selected AF point.
2) As the AF point tracks across the screen, the metering does not
follow the AF point
This is a serious error that could lead to badly exposed pictures
when using 3D tracking.

the first problem is worse than the second one but both should be
resolved. Knowning Nikon, I doubt that they will ever adress it.

As a workaround you can take the following measures
always use the center point as a starting point for 3D tracking and
always have cf-f1 on when using 3D tracking: this locks the exposure
of your subject when you alf press the shutter
It does not solve the problem completely because when the lighting
changes, your subject will be incorrectly exposed anyway.

Sorry guys, I really whish my first post since I recieved my D300
would have been more in the style of "Yeehaaaa" but helas

-- hide signature --

Thanks
Jemini Joseph

http://www.wildbirdimages.com

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Led566 Regular Member • Posts: 450
Re: 2 serious bugs with 3D tracking and metering

jp wrote:

1) If you use ASF-C with 3D tracking then the metering (spot/matrix)
always supposes that the subject is in the middle of the frame
instead of under the selected AF point.

...

Could you please explain better?

I can understand the problem when you use spot metering, but with 3D matrix metering what you describe is completely counterintuitive (IMHO of course).

Raymond Bradlau
Raymond Bradlau Veteran Member • Posts: 5,736
Re: 2 serious bugs with 3D tracking and metering

Matrix should be taking into account was is under the focus point carries the most weight.

If this is not the case lets hope this is a firmware issue

regards
Ray

Led566 wrote:

jp wrote:

1) If you use ASF-C with 3D tracking then the metering (spot/matrix)
always supposes that the subject is in the middle of the frame
instead of under the selected AF point.

...

Could you please explain better?

I can understand the problem when you use spot metering, but with 3D
matrix metering what you describe is completely counterintuitive
(IMHO of course).

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OP jp Senior Member • Posts: 1,151
Both spot and matrix have the problem

Raymond Bradlau wrote:

Matrix should be taking into account was is under the focus point
carries the most weight.

Exactly

If this is not the case lets hope this is a firmware issue

Indeed, lets hope they correct it. But how are they going to know?

regards
Ray

Led566 wrote:

jp wrote:

1) If you use ASF-C with 3D tracking then the metering (spot/matrix)
always supposes that the subject is in the middle of the frame
instead of under the selected AF point.

...

Could you please explain better?

I can understand the problem when you use spot metering, but with 3D
matrix metering what you describe is completely counterintuitive
(IMHO of course).

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People shoot people.

Raymond Bradlau
Raymond Bradlau Veteran Member • Posts: 5,736
Re: Both spot and matrix have the problem

This is a big one, I shoot motor sports and really would like the spot and my AF point to be the same, I MUST have the matrix to work this way.

Did you find anything in a custom setting?

Not sure how to let them know I do not think they actually read there emailed requests, I seem to get generic answers to my tech questions like they have not really read it (there was only camera I had an issue with, it did get fixed but no communication ever took place, I gave up after 3 emails and just sent it to them).

Thanks for the heads up
Ray

jp wrote:

Raymond Bradlau wrote:

Matrix should be taking into account was is under the focus point
carries the most weight.

Exactly

If this is not the case lets hope this is a firmware issue

Indeed, lets hope they correct it. But how are they going to know?

regards
Ray

Led566 wrote:

jp wrote:

1) If you use ASF-C with 3D tracking then the metering (spot/matrix)
always supposes that the subject is in the middle of the frame
instead of under the selected AF point.

...

Could you please explain better?

I can understand the problem when you use spot metering, but with 3D
matrix metering what you describe is completely counterintuitive
(IMHO of course).

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OP jp Senior Member • Posts: 1,151
No custom function, unlike canon

With 1D canons you could disable the link between spot metering and AF point by means of a CF. It is totally superfluous CF because you always want that link of course. Nikon does not have such a oximoron CF so you always have the link.
This here is a real firmware error.

It was already in the D200 when you used auto area AF with AF-C, this gave you also a simplified 3D tracking and there the measuring bias also remained in the middle, but here it was not such a terrible problem. I guess they reused some software routines in the D300 firmware, or it was programmed by the same team that made the same mistake, only this time it has much heaviwer consequences.

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Chroma Regular Member • Posts: 112
Are you sure...

Are you sure you are using a CPU lens and you are not in Auto-area mode? The reason I ask is page 102 of the manual:

Under "Spot Metering" -

"If non-CPU lens is used or if Auto-area AF is in effect the camera will meter center focus point."

OP jp Senior Member • Posts: 1,151
Correction: spot metering has only 1 bug, not 2

With spot metering the initial focus point is used correclty, it is only the tracking that is not correctly followed by the metering system.

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OP jp Senior Member • Posts: 1,151
Both lenses I tried were G-type
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JimPearce
JimPearce Veteran Member • Posts: 9,188
Two is a logical consequence of one jp.

This is at most one bug. I mean in the case of matrix metering: who would track using a spot meter and expect accurate exposure?
--
Jim

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David Chin Forum Pro • Posts: 11,670
Thanks JP ...

I appreciate you sharing this information for the benefit of D300 owners.

jp wrote:

Sorry guys, I really whish my first post since I recieved my D300
would have been more in the style of "Yeehaaaa" but helas

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JH1 Regular Member • Posts: 345
Re: Thanks JP ...

David Chin wrote:
I appreciate you sharing this information for the benefit of D300
owners.

jp wrote:

Sorry guys, I really whish my first post since I recieved my D300
would have been more in the style of "Yeehaaaa" but helas

Is this actually a major issue at all?

I think we might be getting carried away with what we expect a camera to do and what we really need it to do.

Funnily enough my shots with an M4-P (with no in-built meter- I use a Sekonic) tend not to be wildly out between frames. Most people don't notice a full stop error never mind the even smaller ones this 'mistake' must throw up.

When people start complaining about this sort of thing I begin to wonder if they are actually photographers or technology freaks, who have lost sight of creating images and expect the camera to do everything for them.

If you are in an 'odd' lighting situation then I was always taught to get the metering sorted out before the event - it's funny how little it changes. The technology tends to make us a bit hyper about these things.

TwistedMelon Contributing Member • Posts: 559
Re: Both spot and matrix have the problem

jp wrote:

Raymond Bradlau wrote:

If this is not the case lets hope this is a firmware issue

Indeed, lets hope they correct it. But how are they going to know?

They're certainly not going to know because of a post in this forum. Start a site with a domain like "NikonD300.com" or "NikonBugs.com" etc.. Use that site to clearly index all the issues you find and make sure there are very details and accurate steps to set up and reproduce in a testing environment. Send the same information to photo blogs.

You can also make sure to inform your dealer who may have a better connection into Nikon than you do. They can in turn perhaps have any Pros they deal with verify this and also move the issue up through Nikon.

You can also do the obvious. Send your camera back to Nikon for service with the same detailed description of the problem.

Again, posting in a noisy forum will help to bring the issue to the attention of a handful of people, but won't do much more.

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Anil Sudhakaran Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: 2 serious bugs with 3D tracking and metering

You are completely wrong. In all Nikon cameras the metering follows the AF point being used. In case of AFS-C it uses whatever AF sensor is used by the camera achieve focus.

Only when you use Auto Area-AF mode does the camera use only the central sensor.

The is unlike Canon cameras where you have to specifically link the spot metering to the AF sensor through a custom function.

Bob Christensen 3
Bob Christensen 3 Regular Member • Posts: 437
Bug or design flaw?

HI,

Are you suggesting this is a bug, or a design flaw? Does the operation of the camera fail to conform to what the user manual states?

bob

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Anthony Medici Veteran Member • Posts: 5,725
Re: 2 serious bugs with 3D tracking and metering

Anil Sudhakaran wrote:

You are completely wrong. In all Nikon cameras the metering follows
the AF point being used. In case of AFS-C it uses whatever AF sensor
is used by the camera achieve focus.

Now if we add the word "initial" right before the word focus, I'd agree with you entirely. The dynamic tracking on the previous cameras does not show the movement in which focusing point is being used in the view finder. So there is no assumption that it will move the metering as the focusing adjusts points. The 3D tracking does. The metering is still using the initial focus point that was manually selected which is exactly like the previous cameras.

The is unlike Canon cameras where you have to specifically link the
spot metering to the AF sensor through a custom function.

And... ?

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d_light Regular Member • Posts: 190
Re: 2 serious bugs with 3D tracking and metering

Anthony Medici wrote:

Anil Sudhakaran wrote:

You are completely wrong. In all Nikon cameras the metering follows
the AF point being used. In case of AFS-C it uses whatever AF sensor
is used by the camera achieve focus.

Now if we add the word "initial" right before the word focus, I'd
agree with you entirely. The dynamic tracking on the previous cameras
does not show the movement in which focusing point is being used in
the view finder. So there is no assumption that it will move the
metering as the focusing adjusts points.

on the previous cameras there is no assumption that it will move the metering as the focusing adjusts points, but it clearly can be seen on the capture that it doesnt. Also the acquired focus pont can't be checked on the LCD/ or in N.Capture/N.View and it's clear that in dynamic tracking the metering doesn't follow the target as the focusing does, but sticks to the initial focus point

The
metering is still using the initial focus point that was manually
selected which is exactly like the previous cameras.

agree

OP jp Senior Member • Posts: 1,151
Domain is a good idea

I was immediately thinking of doing that too, but I am afraid that in the unlikey event that it becomes indeed popular and that it impacts nikon's sales, I will have a lawsuit on my hands which is something I would rather avoid.

I also thought of informing Thom Hogan who I have communicated with a while back. He has some connections. There are other important people here who may have the right connections to Nikon but I have no credibility with them.

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