Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Started Nov 17, 2007 | Discussions
Dominic.Chan Veteran Member • Posts: 6,168
Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Just got myself an Epson 1400 at a good price, and made some test prints. First thing I noticed was a yellow/green cast on the 1400 on Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paper (PGPP), using the Epson canned profile. A number of other 1400 users have noted similar problems, so I decided to do some measurements see where the problem lies.

I printed some grey patches and measured them using the i1Pro spectrophotometer with the i1share software.

Here are the results that demonstrated the problem readily:

Two printers (Epson 3800, Epson 1400) and two papers (Red River UltraPro2 Satin, Epson Premium Glossy Paper) were used:

  • 3800 RRUP was printed using a custom profile for the paper

  • 1400 RRUP was printed using the profile downloaded from Red River

  • 1400 PGPP was printed using the canned Epson profile, first using the Photo quality setting, then using the PhotoRPM setting.

The colour cast is quite apparent with 1400 PGPP RPM, less so with 1400 PGPP Photo. 1400 RRUP looks reasonably neutral, under daylight.

Note that, regardless of the paper and profile, colours from the 1400 shift dramatically under different illumations (A is for incanadescent; F2 Cool White Fluorescent). In comparison, the 3800 remains very neutral under all four illuminations.

The spectral response curves shed some additional light (so to speak) on the behaviour:

The 1400 ink has a rising sensitivity with wavelength, whereas teh 3800 has a relatively flat response.

The bottom line is that the 1400 green cast can be eliminated with a good profile, but only for a specific viewing light.

Supr X
Supr X Veteran Member • Posts: 4,956
Re: Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Wow, Dominic, that all sounds pretty scientific, but now that i got the word from Adobe that it was their profile-doubling causing my problems, really don't see any color casts at all using Kodak® Ultra Premium Photo Paper in conjunction with the Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paper (PGPP) profile . . .
Thanks!
--
David

. . . shoot like there's no film in the thing!

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 5,593
Re: Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Just read this older post and it confirms the problem I have been having with my R260. The colors look gorgeous under fluorescent lighting, exactly what I see on my monitor, which is also under the same lighting, but once under incandescent light the prints go way too red. The shift is actually quite dramatic.

This is all very disappointing as the quality from the R260 prints, otherwise, is fantastic. I was looking forward to prints that were more vivid and eye popping than traditional prints but unfortunately my search for a suitable printer resumes. Thanks for the post and the analysis. Good stuff!

Edit: By the way, you recommend against these printers for b/w yet I see the shift quite dramatically for color prints too I say buyer beware for these printers with Claria ink have a big flaw whether it's for b/w or color.

Jorge Luis Regular Member • Posts: 229
Re: Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Dominic,

Metamerism for dye inks?

Do the 2400 and 3800 inks display similar behavior under the different lighting conditions?

Jorge

OP Dominic.Chan Veteran Member • Posts: 6,168
Re: Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Jorge Luis wrote:

Do the 2400 and 3800 inks display similar behavior under the
different lighting conditions?

The first column shows 3800 on Red River Ultra Pro paper. Compared with the second column (1400 on same paper), the difference in the two inks under tungsten light is very significant.

OP Dominic.Chan Veteran Member • Posts: 6,168
Re: Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Basalite wrote:

Edit: By the way, you recommend against these printers for b/w yet I
see the shift quite dramatically for color prints too I say buyer
beware for these printers with Claria ink have a big flaw whether
it's for b/w or color.

Yes, the shift affects colour prints as well, but may not be as apparent as with b/w prints. As many 1400 owners seem happy with their colour prints, I decided to restrict my caution to b/w prints only.

Donald Cooper Veteran Member • Posts: 4,927
Re: Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Very interesting Dominic. Absolutely great test. I for one would not have expected this at all.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 5,593
Re: Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Dominic.Chan wrote:

Basalite wrote:

Edit: By the way, you recommend against these printers for b/w yet I
see the shift quite dramatically for color prints too I say buyer
beware for these printers with Claria ink have a big flaw whether
it's for b/w or color.

Yes, the shift affects colour prints as well, but may not be as
apparent as with b/w prints. As many 1400 owners seem happy with
their colour prints, I decided to restrict my caution to b/w prints
only.

In many cases, most maybe, I would suspect, people are not moving their prints from one lighting condition to another so they may not notice. In my case I bought the r260 for the sole purpose of a recent project to print a very large number of 4x6 prints as a gift. The problem is that even in an album these prints would be affected by a large enough color shift that many of them would look awful to perfect going from incandescent to the now very common compact fluorescent bulbs. The mix of incandescent and CFLs is pretty common and in my opinion this exposes a critical flaw in these printers.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss but people, especially those that frequent these types of forums, choose these printers to get an overall step above lab quality, as I did, and if I had known these printers had this flaw I would not have bought it. Hopefully your post will save other people time and expense.

Hopefully Epson will introduce an affordable small format pigment printer that will not have this problem. I wonder if the older R800 is affected?

Carl Schofield Senior Member • Posts: 2,649
Re: Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

You can try making a low gamut gray profile that uses minimal amounts of color inks, yellow in particular, to minimize metamerism. I tried this with an R380 using QTR and had some success. Two profiles available in the Epson 380 folder in the files section of the QTR forum. You can try them and see if they work with the 1400 as well. One is a black only profile and the other is a "2-K" profile with a composite gray made form CMY. Pity that Epson didn't include a gray ink for these Claria printers.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/files/Curves/
--
http://www.pbase.com/scho/leica_m8

 Carl Schofield's gear list:Carl Schofield's gear list
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OP Dominic.Chan Veteran Member • Posts: 6,168
Re: Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Basalite wrote:

Hopefully Epson will introduce an affordable small format pigment
printer that will not have this problem. I wonder if the older R800
is affected?

Here are the results for the R1800, R8 (Lyson ink for the R1800), Canon ip4300, and Epson R260. Except for the 3800, the other ones all have various degrees of colour shift.

flashjack New Member • Posts: 14
Re: Epson 1400 Paper Choice?

Hello everyone. Sorry to cahnge the subject a bit but, I JUST picked up an Epson 1400 today and, although I have not had enough time to actually learn it, I have an initial question. How important is the choice of paper with regard to image quality? I've been using a HP 7960 and really never gave much thought to paper, mostly using Kodak & HP Premium Glossy. I've tried these two glossy brands with the 1400 and with the stock profile the results were terrible! I also printed from Photoshop CS and did not fare too much better.

How are the standard Epson Glossy Photo Paper and the Epson Premium Glossy? Should I be using the Epson profiles and any other brand of photo paper?
I appreciate any replies.

simpy Veteran Member • Posts: 3,094
Re: Epson 1400 (Claria Ink) Green Cast Analysed

Dominic.Chan wrote:

Here are the results for the R1800, R8 (Lyson ink for the R1800),
Canon ip4300, and Epson R260. Except for the 3800, the other ones
all have various degrees of colour shift.

Dominic,

Thank you for this information. It's incredibly useful. You don't by any chance have any samples from the HP B9180 (Vivera pigment) or Canon P9500 (Lucia pigment), do you? That would make for an interesting comparison in the upper consumer class of printers...

Cheers,
Simon

 simpy's gear list:simpy's gear list
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dicky109 Regular Member • Posts: 115
Re: Epson 1400 Paper Choice?

flashjack wrote:

Hello everyone. Sorry to cahnge the subject a bit but, I JUST picked
up an Epson 1400 today and, although I have not had enough time to
actually learn it, I have an initial question. How important is the
choice of paper with regard to image quality? I've been using a HP
7960 and really never gave much thought to paper, mostly using Kodak
& HP Premium Glossy. I've tried these two glossy brands with the 1400
and with the stock profile the results were terrible! I also printed
from Photoshop CS and did not fare too much better.
How are the standard Epson Glossy Photo Paper and the Epson Premium
Glossy? Should I be using the Epson profiles and any other brand of
photo paper?
I appreciate any replies.

I recently purchased the 1400 after having an Epson 1280 for 5-6 years. While I've gotten the best results from Epson papers, I've also used Kodak, Red River and Costco's brand and gotten good results. On the other hand, I got a package of Fuji paper for free and it wasn't even worth that much!

The most important thing is to use the proper profile. Unless you're going to have custom profiles made, use Epson profiles for Epson paper. Use Red River profiles for Red River paper, etc. Some of the brands will tell you which Epson profile should be used with their paper, but I've found that the results will vary.

Good luck
--
Rich B

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