The EVIL Camera Design Project update...

Started Oct 30, 2007 | Discussions
chuxter Forum Pro • Posts: 21,714
The EVIL Camera Design Project update...

I've renamed the Project...used to be the 4:3 Camera.

Made a few changes. Added a few new wrinkles. Added a 2nd LED flash. Completely edited the article:

http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/?page_id=27

Please give me your insights. If at first you don't like it, go away and try it again after you have slept...

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Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/

 chuxter's gear list:chuxter's gear list
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Arizona Sunshine Veteran Member • Posts: 3,025
Re: The EVIL Camera Design Project update...

Wow Chuck, I haven't read it all yet, but you really have put lots MORE work into this camera. It looks pretty darn good!

I will have to bookmark it and finish reading it at a later time, but just wanted to let you know I think this is cool. I also like that you have let your personality show thru in the comentary. Makes it more interesting and easier to read thru it.

Thanks for this!

Bonnie
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200mm Senior Member • Posts: 1,210
Re: The EVIL Camera Design Project update...
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Very interesting, have you try contacting a camera maker? hopefuly nikon...
Roger.

Amateurs worry about sharpness.
Professionals worry about sales.
Photographers worry about light.

furrycute Contributing Member • Posts: 511
Re: The EVIL Camera Design Project update...

Very interesting concept. And good work!

It's about time that we should do away with that archaic mirrorbox!

Ominous Veteran Member • Posts: 4,304
Re: The EVIL Camera Design Project update...

furrycute wrote:

Very interesting concept. And good work!

It's about time that we should do away with that archaic mirrorbox!

Once AF speed is increased where it is as fast as current AF system, EVF response time is lowered, and EVF resolution is many times what it is today....sure.

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tex Veteran Member • Posts: 7,991
i dig your thinking

i guess you've looked at these, and their modular system?
http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/cameras

anyway, don't have time now to give you extensive thoughts, but i've got a couple to throw your way. maybe tonight, although i'm getting ready for a trip.

but generally, i don't need my digital image capture device to look like a film camera---although in my mind the rangefinder body, which is basically just a rectangle, makes sense.

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Ed Halley Veteran Member • Posts: 4,122
f/8 and 1/800sec...

The f/8 and 1/800sec notations are not just an obsolete antique like the pieces of eight coins. (The NYSE finally stopped following this doubloon trivia in the late 1990s.) They're related to the fact that Light, Aperture, Sensitivity and Time are all factors of Exposure. L*A*S*T=E. If you halve the light, you must double one of the others. That's why the word "stop" applies to aperture, but colloquially also for studio strobes, ISO numbers and shutter durations. Doubling things a lot works naturally in powers of two (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128...), not powers of ten.

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[ e d @ h a l l e y . c c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/

furrycute Contributing Member • Posts: 511
Re: The EVIL Camera Design Project update...

I wonder what kind of digital cameras are being used on those satellites flying above our heads. Do they use a mirrorbox?

The technology is here today, it's just that nobody wants to rock the lucrative sales traditional mirrorbox based DSLR's are commanding these days, not to mention all the profits from those ludicrously priced DSLR lenses.

Ominous wrote:

furrycute wrote:

Very interesting concept. And good work!

It's about time that we should do away with that archaic mirrorbox!

Once AF speed is increased where it is as fast as current AF system,
EVF response time is lowered, and EVF resolution is many times what
it is today....sure.

Ominous Veteran Member • Posts: 4,304
Re: The EVIL Camera Design Project update...

furrycute wrote:

I wonder what kind of digital cameras are being used on those
satellites flying above our heads. Do they use a mirrorbox?

Not being an expert, I'd guess it is some type of laser system...or radar...or other distance measuring system...not what is used in current live view SLRs or P&S cameras...that are just awfully slow.

The technology is here today, it's just that nobody wants to rock the
lucrative sales traditional mirrorbox based DSLR's are commanding
these days, not to mention all the profits from those ludicrously
priced DSLR lenses.

Do you think lens prices would drop if they moved to a mirror less interchangeable system?

Ohh...and lenses have been ludicrously priced way before the dslr was out.

I would wager they would cost more at first.

Ominous wrote:

furrycute wrote:

Very interesting concept. And good work!

It's about time that we should do away with that archaic mirrorbox!

Once AF speed is increased where it is as fast as current AF system,
EVF response time is lowered, and EVF resolution is many times what
it is today....sure.

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OP chuxter Forum Pro • Posts: 21,714
Re: f/8 and 1/800sec...

Ed Halley wrote:

The f/8 and 1/800sec notations are not just an obsolete antique like
the pieces of eight coins. (The NYSE finally stopped following this
doubloon trivia in the late 1990s.) They're related to the fact that
Light, Aperture, Sensitivity and Time are all factors of Exposure.
L*A*S*T=E. If you halve the light, you must double one of the
others. That's why the word "stop" applies to aperture, but
colloquially also for studio strobes, ISO numbers and shutter
durations. Doubling things a lot works naturally in powers of two
(1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128...), not powers of ten.

I agree. But with digital cameras, the aperture and exposure times don't change by powers of 2 anymore. That is the part that is obsolete. One of my cameras likes to set the exposure to numbers like 1/632 sec and 1/339 sec. Since these are NOT anything close to powers of two, why not just admit that representing them as fractions is a silly hold over from the mechanical camera days. I'm just saying to do the math and say that the times are 0.001582 sec and 0.002950 sec.

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Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/

 chuxter's gear list:chuxter's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D500 Tamron SP 90mm F2.8 Di VC USD 1:1 Macro (F004) Sigma 24-105mm F4 DG OS HSM Tamron SP 150-600mm F/5-6.3 Di VC USD +2 more
OP chuxter Forum Pro • Posts: 21,714
Re: The EVIL Camera Design Project update...

Ominous wrote:

Once AF speed is increased where it is as fast as current AF system, EVF
response time is lowered, and EVF resolution is many times what it is
today....sure.

Every design is a compromise. An EVIL approach will give some benefits, such as smaller, cheaper lens designs, data included in the viewfinder (like live histogram and visual indication of blown areas), etc. Some factors will also be compromised...things like what you mentioned. If the pluses exceed the minuses for a substantial segment of the market, then the concept will be successful.

Undoubtedly, not every manufacturer will take this risk...initially. I'd really be surprised if either Canon or Nikon was interested. But Olympus or Sony or Pentax might be?

The technology is here today, it's just that nobody wants to rock the
lucrative sales traditional mirrorbox based DSLR's are commanding
these days, not to mention all the profits from those ludicrously
priced DSLR lenses.

Do you think lens prices would drop if they moved to a mirror less
interchangeable system?

Probably. Hard to say, as often the marketing guys like to take profits early. I can see them selling the cheaper to produce SBF lenses for more.

Ohh...and lenses have been ludicrously priced way before the dslr was
out.

I would wager they would cost more at first.

Could be?

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Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/

 chuxter's gear list:chuxter's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D500 Tamron SP 90mm F2.8 Di VC USD 1:1 Macro (F004) Sigma 24-105mm F4 DG OS HSM Tamron SP 150-600mm F/5-6.3 Di VC USD +2 more
BJN
BJN Veteran Member • Posts: 5,094
LAME but interesting

Little Actual Merit Effort. It's interesting to see a garage effort at product design, although I could do without the obsessive detail (a summary page would be nice for those who don't want to wade through it al).

There are so many problems with the concept I won't bother listing those I see. Instead I'll thank you for at least keeping the idea of an compact camera innovation alive even as camera makers are too timid to offer anything fresh on their own.

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BJN

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Ed Halley Veteran Member • Posts: 4,122
Re: f/8 and 1/800sec...

chuxter wrote:

One of my cameras likes to set the exposure to numbers like
1/632 sec and 1/339 sec. Since these are NOT anything close to powers
of two, why not just admit that representing them as fractions is a
silly hold over from the mechanical camera days. I'm just saying to
do the math and say that the times are 0.001582 sec and 0.002950 sec.

Oh, now I can totally see the value of your system. 0.002950 is MUCH easier to understand.

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[ e d @ h a l l e y . c c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/

OP chuxter Forum Pro • Posts: 21,714
Re: f/8 and 1/800sec...

Ed Halley wrote:

chuxter wrote:

One of my cameras likes to set the exposure to numbers like
1/632 sec and 1/339 sec. Since these are NOT anything close to powers
of two, why not just admit that representing them as fractions is a
silly hold over from the mechanical camera days. I'm just saying to
do the math and say that the times are 0.001582 sec and 0.002950 sec.

Oh, now I can totally see the value of your system. 0.002950 is MUCH
easier to understand.

LOL... I don't think 1/339 or 0.002950 are either very "easy". Remember that on most cameras, 1/339 is shown as "339". That makes it appear that 1/339 is smaller than 1/632!

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Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/

 chuxter's gear list:chuxter's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D500 Tamron SP 90mm F2.8 Di VC USD 1:1 Macro (F004) Sigma 24-105mm F4 DG OS HSM Tamron SP 150-600mm F/5-6.3 Di VC USD +2 more
OP chuxter Forum Pro • Posts: 21,714
Re: LAME but interesting

BJN wrote:

Little Actual Merit Effort. It's interesting to see a garage effort
at product design, although I could do without the obsessive detail
(a summary page would be nice for those who don't want to wade
through it al).

That's a good idea. Thanks.

There are so many problems with the concept I won't bother listing
those I see.

That's not at all helpful.

Instead I'll thank you for at least keeping the idea of
an compact camera innovation alive even as camera makers are too
timid to offer anything fresh on their own.

You are welcome...

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Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/

 chuxter's gear list:chuxter's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D500 Tamron SP 90mm F2.8 Di VC USD 1:1 Macro (F004) Sigma 24-105mm F4 DG OS HSM Tamron SP 150-600mm F/5-6.3 Di VC USD +2 more
John W Peterson Senior Member • Posts: 2,737
Wow !

What an amazing effort - you deserve congratulations for the ingenuity and effort that you have put into this. I look forward to continuing to follow it as it evolves.

Steve West Veteran Member • Posts: 6,028
Re: The EVIL Camera Design Project update...

Eventually, you'll have designed a Konica Minolta A2 with a larger sensor The KM A2 is hands down the best P&S ever made--and the way the camera companies are proceeding, it may be the best ever designed.

Having used the A2 for a couple of years (with high res tilting EVF), I really enjoyed it, but I have to say I find the pentaprism viewfinder on my KM 7D to much much better for daily use. EVF technology should continue to improve giving that concept some hope for the future..

What I like most about your project is that instead of just whining and complaining like the rest of us, you're doing something constructive!!!

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Iskender
Iskender Senior Member • Posts: 1,329
Re: The EVIL Camera Design Project update...

That's a very brave page! Nice work.

I hope you're prepared to deal with the fact that you're ahead of your time - many will look down on this much like they did with digital around the year 2000. And in a way, everyone is right - most EVFs today are bad, and removing the optical viewfinder can bring great rewards.
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jrdu Forum Pro • Posts: 21,371
Go Charlie Davis!

Excellent read. Looks like a very nice little camera. It's amazing that someone could actually imagine it and build it himself. It's also amazing to me that you have responded so well to feedback.
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John Dunn
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Timskis6 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,567
So basically...

You are taking all of our user opinions to make an ideal camera based solely on user input, made by a photographer for a photographer. That is excellent.

Shouldn't the camera companies be hiring people like you? Seriously though, have you considered an EVIL patent?

LoL. I've been following this design from the first attempt, and it's getting better with every update.

How does the cooling mechanism work? Passive cooling by ambient air across the cooling fins?

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Tim
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