Corner sharpness: Four Thirds vs 35mm (bandwidth warning)

Started Oct 27, 2007 | Discussions
Charles Nguyen Senior Member • Posts: 1,068
Re: 4/3rds lens gives better coverage

Also you can try to set at f10/f11 for both cameras and see which one is sharper. I guarantee you the olymps camera is sharper,. I'm selling my 30D and lenses and went back and bought the E-500 with 2 lens kit. I also like the color rendition from SHQ jpegs from Kodak sensor. Canon colors are ok and don't have that punch like Oly.

pidera Contributing Member • Posts: 926
Ultra Wide Angle : more comparisons or experience anyone ?

I'm interested. As a Canon 350d user with some EF lense (and a large collections of RAW files) the 5D sucessor with e.g. the Sigma 12-24 would be an obvious choice but I'm keeping an eye open on alternatives as Nikon (14-24) an Olympus (7-14) probably have better zoom lenses to offer and I don't expect canon offering a zoom wider than 16mm anytime soon. Rgds, Pieter

 pidera's gear list:pidera's gear list
Nikon D800E Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm X-Pro2 Fujifilm XF 16mm F2.8
Amin Sabet
OP Amin Sabet Veteran Member • Posts: 6,763
Re: Actually, more than fair.

joe mama wrote:

Check out how the 28 / 2.8 fares against the 24-85 / 3.5-4.5 zoom:

I think the most likely explanation for the PZ results is that what they are measuring as "Border" isn't representing the extreme corners that I am comparing in this thread. I have compared my 28/2.8 to a heck of a lot of Canon lenses (including 2 L zooms) and would be very, very surprised if a 24-85 had sharper extreme corners than this at f/11 on a 35mm camera. Then again, I recall Adam-T dissing the 28/2.8 and lauding a copy of the 24-85...

Either way, I don't think it's productive to debate which lens gave one system an advantage versus the other. Neither lens represents the best available for its system. Each cost me $100, so I consider both to be good value lenses. These results may suggest something generalizable to the systems they represent, and they may not. It would take a great deal of other comparisons to say for sure. If one is willing to pay thousands of dollars, corner sharpness is achievable at 21mm on the 5D. I'm guessing - but only guessing - that sharpness in the extreme corners comes cheaper with the Four Thirds system.

 Amin Sabet's gear list:Amin Sabet's gear list
Sony a9 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85 Nikon D500 Nikon D810 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +16 more
fldspringer Senior Member • Posts: 1,427
Re: Corner sharpness: Four Thirds vs 35mm (bandwidth warning)

Ominous wrote:

I'm saying your test is anything but scientific, and thus is not a
real test of any sort.

There is no true scientific test across different systems. There is too many variables. Its a fools game. Joe insisted the test be done just as it was. Corners still suffered. Its a weakness of 35mm FF. Two stops of aperture weren't enough to cover it up.

What variables are in control of?

None...so it's not a test at all.

You won't get an argument out of me. I would have done it at the same aperture. It wouldn't have been better, but it would have been fair.

Also....the prime you used is rather...lackluster...at best.

And a lackluster prime was put up against a kit zoom lens shot wide open. I guess the deck was really stacked against the 5D.

Bummer, eh

 fldspringer's gear list:fldspringer's gear list
Nikon D3S Olympus E-3 Nikon D500 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 600mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II +11 more
Amin Sabet
OP Amin Sabet Veteran Member • Posts: 6,763
Re: 4/3rds lens gives better coverage

Charles Nguyen wrote:

Also you can try to set at f10/f11 for both cameras and see which one
is sharper. I guarantee you the olymps camera is sharper,.

I will do that at some point since you and others would like to see it. Based on my experience, I wouldn't expect the results you guarantee. I also don't think a sharpness comparison of two different cameras with a kit lens on one and a "random" prime on the other is very important. If anything, I'd rather see a sharpness comparison between two systems with the kit zoom used in both cases. I sincerely hope this thread doesn't turn into another discussion of matching DOF, diffraction, and all that stuff which has been discussed so well in so many threads. You'd like to see an f11 matchup, for whatever reason, I will try to shoot one for you.

selling my 30D and lenses and went back and bought the E-500 with 2
lens kit. I also like the color rendition from SHQ jpegs from Kodak
sensor. Canon colors are ok and don't have that punch like Oly.

My Oly doesn't have a Kodak sensor, but I really like the colors as well. It took me a long time to get a RAW processing workflow for the 5D that gave me the colors I want. With the Olympus, as with my Digilux 2, the colors I want take less work. It isn't a simple matter of the degree of in-camera contrast or saturation either.

 Amin Sabet's gear list:Amin Sabet's gear list
Sony a9 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85 Nikon D500 Nikon D810 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +16 more
fldspringer Senior Member • Posts: 1,427
Re: 4/3rds lens gives better coverage

Amin Sabet wrote:

Charles Nguyen wrote:

Also you can try to set at f10/f11 for both cameras and see which one
is sharper. I guarantee you the olymps camera is sharper,.

I will do that at some point since you and others would like to see
it. Based on my experience, I wouldn't expect the results you
guarantee. I also don't think a sharpness comparison of two
different cameras with a kit lens on one and a "random" prime on the
other is very important. If anything, I'd rather see a sharpness
comparison between two systems with the kit zoom used in both cases.
I sincerely hope this thread doesn't turn into another discussion of
matching DOF, diffraction, and all that stuff which has been
discussed so well in so many threads. You'd like to see an f11
matchup, for whatever reason, I will try to shoot one for you.

I have a tendancy to go along with your line of thought. The Zuikos generally behave about the same from open to about f8 and then diffraction will bring resolution down. We already know what the 5D does at that setting. The E410/510 won't benefit beyond, perhaps, a single stop.

 fldspringer's gear list:fldspringer's gear list
Nikon D3S Olympus E-3 Nikon D500 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 600mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II +11 more
blackrat1608 Junior Member • Posts: 33
Re: Corner sharpness: Four Thirds vs 35mm (bandwidth warning)

Hi all

What the hell kind of test was this, to perform a comparison you need to at least start with lenses of of similar qualities and then to shoot one at f5.6 and the other at f11 will never provide any kind of correlation. then to compare any kind of kit lens against a prime will prove nothing.

pidera Contributing Member • Posts: 926
Same DOF !

You can read more here : http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=22231552 or do a search on 'equivalence'. Rgds, Pieter

 pidera's gear list:pidera's gear list
Nikon D800E Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm X-Pro2 Fujifilm XF 16mm F2.8
blackrat1608 Junior Member • Posts: 33
Re: Same DOF !

I know all about the eq of the systems and how fov/dof correspond, my whole point is that the OP is comparing a all be it excellent kit lens with a prime the whole test should have been done using very similar lenses of course this is difficult with the 2 systems using very different lenses and the 3rd party manufactures are really only producing lenses for the aps c size sensor.
Andrew

Amin Sabet
OP Amin Sabet Veteran Member • Posts: 6,763
Move along then. Nothing to see here for you. nt

Ominous wrote:

 Amin Sabet's gear list:Amin Sabet's gear list
Sony a9 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85 Nikon D500 Nikon D810 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +16 more
Amin Sabet
OP Amin Sabet Veteran Member • Posts: 6,763
Re: Corner sharpness: Four Thirds vs 35mm (bandwidth warning)

blackrat1608 wrote:

What the hell kind of test was this...
... prove nothing.

Yes, well, I pretty much covered that all in my disclaimers. It would be really, really hard to comprehensively test this issue. I consider my little test to be provocative and of interest to some. Others will find it wholly worthless, and that's okay with me.

 Amin Sabet's gear list:Amin Sabet's gear list
Sony a9 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85 Nikon D500 Nikon D810 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +16 more
Charles Nguyen Senior Member • Posts: 1,068
Effective f stops on 4/3rds

With 4/3rd camera it's 2 stops slower than 35mm FF say at 50mm f1.4 you can have a Pan L1 25mm at f1.4 but in reality you're shooting at f2.8. It's sort of fallacy when talking about fast 4/3rd lenses. Too bad you don't have the exact focal lengths to compare between the 2 systems. I would like to see 28-70mm f2.8 L lens vs 14-54mm f2.8/3.5 Oly lens.

Ominous Veteran Member • Posts: 4,304
FF corner test using my primes

I used a 50, 85, and 100 MM lens to do the testing.

ISO 200, F5.6

No, not F8, F11, etc...F5.6

I DID use a tripod, you can see it in the 50 MM shot.

Lighting was not the best, I was using two smaller lights, which didn't give even lighting across the whole frame.

Resized of the whole frames will be first, than 100% crops.

50 MM

85 MM

100 MM

50 MM
The corners are darker, due to the lens perhaps...or perhaps also my lighting.

The corners are softer, but I can still see individual hairs and fibers of the carpet...by no means "soft"..but for a $50 lens....I'd say its not too bad.
Center

Edge

85 MM
Both the center and edge seem very sharp, with minimal differences.
Center

Edge

100 MM
Much like the 85 MM lens, sharpness is what I see
Center

Edge

I lack any wider prime lenses, plan on adding a 35 and 24 before too long (sold a 24 a while back and miss having a wide prime). I'll have to try my 16-35, but I need to find a target that is large enough, flat enough, and that I can light evenly, to test.

-- hide signature --
Amin Sabet
OP Amin Sabet Veteran Member • Posts: 6,763
Re: Effective f stops on 4/3rds

Charles Nguyen wrote:

With 4/3rd camera it's 2 stops slower than 35mm FF say at 50mm f1.4
you can have a Pan L1 25mm at f1.4 but in reality you're shooting at
f2.8. It's sort of fallacy when talking about fast 4/3rd lenses.

I disagree with your wording, though I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. The Four Thirds sensor is effectively two stops slower, so with a lens at the same f-stop, the Four Thirds system is effectively two stops slower. It's incorrect to say the Four Thirds lens is slower, since any f/1.4 lens will have the same effect on exposure, independent of format. It is thus entirely appropriate to speak of fast 4/3rd lenses.

Too
bad you don't have the exact focal lengths to compare between the 2
systems. I would like to see 28-70mm f2.8 L lens vs 14-54mm f2.8/3.5
Oly lens.

Well those are very different focal lengths. In terms of focal lengths that give the same field of view, I did just that. I shot a 28mm lens on the 35mm camera and a 14mm lens on the Four Thirds camera. Is it that you want to see a zoom versus a zoom?

 Amin Sabet's gear list:Amin Sabet's gear list
Sony a9 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85 Nikon D500 Nikon D810 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +16 more
Charles Nguyen Senior Member • Posts: 1,068
Re: Effective f stops on 4/3rds

yes zoom vs zoom

fldspringer Senior Member • Posts: 1,427
Re: Effective f stops on 4/3rds

Charles Nguyen wrote:

With 4/3rd camera it's 2 stops slower than 35mm FF say at 50mm f1.4
you can have a Pan L1 25mm at f1.4 but in reality you're shooting at
f2.8. It's sort of fallacy when talking about fast 4/3rd lenses. Too
bad you don't have the exact focal lengths to compare between the 2
systems. I would like to see 28-70mm f2.8 L lens vs 14-54mm f2.8/3.5
Oly lens.

In reality, its just not the case. A 50 f1.4 is a 50 f1.4 and no more complicated than that. On 4/3, that lens has an angle of view approximating a 100mm lens on on a 35mm FF camera.

As far as DOF is concerned, it is still a 50 f1.4 and will behave like it. Nothing more complex than that.

The 35 ff at the same aperture collects 4 times the light, but that's because it has to. It has to expose 4 time the sensor area. The same light density per area for both systems and the same exposure time.

This DOF equiv thing is nothing of any value to my photography. Seems as no one outside of 35mm FF players seem to give it a second thought.

 fldspringer's gear list:fldspringer's gear list
Nikon D3S Olympus E-3 Nikon D500 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 600mm f/4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II +11 more
Amin Sabet
OP Amin Sabet Veteran Member • Posts: 6,763
Re: FF corner test using my primes

Ominous wrote:

I lack any wider prime lenses, plan on adding a 35 and 24 before too
long (sold a 24 a while back and miss having a wide prime). I'll
have to try my 16-35, but I need to find a target that is large
enough, flat enough, and that I can light evenly, to test.

Yes, my normal and tele lenses have always had sharp corners when stopped down on the 5D. The most common knock on the Canon 35mm system is the lack of sharp corners on wide angle lenses. They designed the 16-35 II and 14 II in large part to beat this rap. They have in part succeeded. Some nice work evaluating wide angle lenses for the Canon 35mm system has been done here -> http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/ . You may have seen it. If not, check it out. You'll be happy to see that Mark used a tripod for each test ;).

As for your future testing of wide primes, I'm personally not so interested in seeing flat near targets. Many lenses behave differently on close targets than far ones, and for this application, it's generally the far ones that count. Of course that's just my preference.

 Amin Sabet's gear list:Amin Sabet's gear list
Sony a9 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85 Nikon D500 Nikon D810 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +16 more
Focused Regular Member • Posts: 110
How about this if corner sharpness is really important...

How about a Canon 40D with the same EF 28mm f/2.8 prime? In that case, the corner sharpness would obviously be superb, much better than FF or 4/3rds.

lloyd007 Senior Member • Posts: 1,354
Re: Effective f stops on 4/3rds

Ah jeez the whole f1.4 is really f2.8... Repeat after me... f1.4 is always f1.4 the exposure will be the same no matter what system whether 4:3 or 30x40 sheet film. The only difference is a 35mm lens will expose 4x the area of a 4:3 sensor and will have less noise as a result but otherwise the images will be the SAME and shooting at low iso when there really isn't any noise at all the images will be pretty much the same too.

Stu 5 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,277
Re: Corner sharpness: Four Thirds vs 35mm (bandwidth warning)

Amin Sabet wrote:

Prognathous wrote:

Thanks for posting this comparison. It would be interesting see both
cameras at ISO 200 and f/5.6.

Prog.

Sure thing Prog. If I get some time, I'll do that one for you.
--
http://aminphoto.blogspot.com (blog)
http://feeds.feedburner.com/aminphotopipe (feed mashup)
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=5173943951 (Ricoh Group)

Without tesing them at the same aperture setting the test is a complete waste of time. Best performance on both lenses should be somewhere at about one stop from fully closed. Also using a lens test chart would be a good idea. Again a waste of time doing the test without one. If you are going to do the test correctly use a test chart and test both lenses on a tripod at every aperture setting on the two lenses. This is the only way to test lenses properly.

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads