2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

Started Oct 16, 2007 | Discussions
Tamlin_WSGF Forum Member • Posts: 83
2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

Currently, I have the 2690WUXi connected to two machines, one through DVI-D and one through DVI-I. One with XP and another with Vista. My question is this:

Both can have individually adjustments, but do they have individual LUTs as well? If I were to calibrate the LUT on XP, will it then change the programmable in Vista too? And what about the programmable gammacomp, can I have 2 different gammacurves, one for the XP machine and another for the Vista?

With regards,

Tamlin

UCSB
UCSB Contributing Member • Posts: 991
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

You did not indicate if you are using Spectraview II for your calibration and profiling. If you are, then you would have Spectraview II on each machine. Each machine would have it's own calibration target and associated profile in Spectraview II. Then on the machine that you are using, just start Spectraview II and select your target for that machine. Spectraview will load that targets LUTs and associated profile. Since each target is independent, you can select independent gamma curves on each machine.

I'm a 2690 owner with Spectraview II.

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Bill.

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OP Tamlin_WSGF Forum Member • Posts: 83
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

Thanks Bill.

It'll be with Spectraview Profiler (EU version of Spectraview 2). It can also load profiles into the screen and also LUT calibrate them.

With it, I can also use:

Combined hardware/software calibration where it doesn't touch monitor LUT, but calibrates everything else.
Software calibration (GFX LUT) great for calibrating the sRGB preset.

And profiling only, where it measures and creates a profile without doing any calibration.

When I calibrate the screen using LUT calibration, it doesn't touch the native mode, so I assume that the screen operates with several LUT's.

What I wonder, if it operates with several LUTs for each input as well. If so, I don't have to reload the correct profile each time i switch connections. Since Spectraview loads it into the screen, while the operating system only loads the profile into the GFX LUT, I cannot just start the machine and then be set. Different LUTS will make switching between inputs more painless. Alternatly, I can use the hardware/software calibration on one of the machines and avoid this, or load the profile through Spectraview Profiler before each use, but it would be preferred with different LUTs if its implemented so in the 2690WUXi!

With regards,

Tamlin

UCSB
UCSB Contributing Member • Posts: 991
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

I only use one input ... I would recommend calling NEC tech support and see what they say.
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OP Tamlin_WSGF Forum Member • Posts: 83
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

Thanks, but NEC support in Norway is outsourced and they haven't got a clue.

Tech support usually don't know anything that isn't already in the manual anyway, so I hope Will or someone that have indepth knowledge of this screen can give a straight official answer.

Will49 Regular Member • Posts: 225
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

The 90 series has one programmable LUT that is shared between inputs and resolutions. Different inputs and resolutions can have different color settings, but if they use the Programmable LUT, then it is shared.

So if you calibrate on one input, you can switch to another input and have different or the same color settings if you want (just not different LUTs). If you want to have the same color settings without recalibrating on the second input, you will need to manually select the "PRG" mode on the GAMMA SELECTION menu, and the "P" mode on the COLOR CONTROL menu.

If you wanted to have 2 totally different custom calibrations on each input (including LUTs), then you would need to have the calibration software reconfigure the monitor each time you change the inputs. SpectraView II can do this, but I'm not sure about the European SpectraView Profiler.

Hope this helps.

Tamlin_WSGF wrote:

Currently, I have the 2690WUXi connected to two machines, one through
DVI-D and one through DVI-I. One with XP and another with Vista. My
question is this:

Both can have individually adjustments, but do they have individual
LUTs as well? If I were to calibrate the LUT on XP, will it then
change the programmable in Vista too? And what about the programmable
gammacomp, can I have 2 different gammacurves, one for the XP machine
and another for the Vista?

With regards,

Tamlin

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Will Hollingworth
Manager of OEM Product Design & Development Engineering
NEC Display Solutions of America, Inc.

UCSB
UCSB Contributing Member • Posts: 991
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

Will ... I own a NEC 2690 and Spectraview II. I am very happy with both products. I finally got a working approach to getting the color right for my web work (see copy of an earlier post below).

My question: What is the story behind sRGB mode? It does not seem very accurate to me. It can not be calibrated or profiled (to the best of my knowledge) in Spectraview II. Am I missing something in terms of being able to maximize the performance of sRGB mode? Are their plans to integrate sRGB calibration/profiling into Spectraview II?

Thanks,
Bill.

===========================
From an earlier post I made:

Here are some of my observations on the 2690 & sRGB content on the web.

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I have just upgraded my monitor to a NEC LCD2690WUXi wide gamut monitor. In doing the project, I learned several things that may be helpful to others.

A little background … I use my monitor for photo editing, photo soft proofing/printing, web development, and general (web, office apps). I need to have accurate colors when reviewing my web development on the monitor.

The bottom line: when using a wide gamut monitor you must be in a color managed application or your colors are going to be too saturated. Color will be unreliable if you are using applications that are not color managed.

Photo editing/viewing software is color managed can be used with wide gamut monitors to get nice results. The problem is if you are reviewing images on the web or doing web development. I have not focused on office applications (Microsoft Office), but I am assuming that they will have bad color. If you have spent any time looking at this issue, please share your observations. I produce .pdf documents out of office apps and would like to have color support here, but have not looked at this issue either.

Here is what I learned about web color support on a PC. Comments are for PC users. Current versions of MS Internet Explorer and Foxfire do not support color management and will give you incorrect color. The color will be unusable if you are doing web development or just want color that is reliable. Apple has released a browser called Safari for the PC that is supposedly color managed. It will look at color profiles in images and correct. But, the overall experience does not work on wide gamut monitors because they seem to be leaving all sRGB content (plus some other content) untouched. Basically, their browser will work on standard gamut monitors, but not wide gamut monitors. All other browsers (Opera, etc.) do not do color management.

Fortunately, there is an effort to develop the next version of Foxfire (v3). This updated browser is planned to be available in 2008. The open source effort has a working alpha code version of this browser up and going (alpha v7) for software developers. Since software development is one of my skill sets, I downloaded the alpha software. Color management is available in the software and it is implemented correctly. It uses your monitor profile and will present all content correctly (with the exception of plug-ins like Flash, that are not under the browsers control). It assumes that untagged content is sRGB and converts it correctly. Currently, the color management is turned off in the alpha version and you have to go into browser configuration code (not preferences, you need to some technical background here to go into the control code) to turn it on. This new browser will solve the web color management issues when it is released. I don’t know when the production release will occur, or even when the beta releases might become available. The alpha code seems stable to me and I plan to use it for my general web use (but, not for secure web apps at this time).

Anyway, since we have discussed this issue many times, I just wanted to let everyone know that this critical piece of the puzzle is on it’s way. With instructions, I think most non techie’s could easily flip on the color support in the alpha code. If you are currently using Foxfire, this new version is almost exactly the same.

-----
Some thoughts on sRGB mode on the 2690
-----

sRGB mode does not seem to be very good. When I switched it on the color did not seem to be extremely accurate. You can't calibrate sRGB mode using SpectraView II ... so I used Eye-One Match3 to do an external calibration while in sRGB mode. I ended up with a DeltaE in the Match3 monitor validator of 3.4. This confirmed my impressions. I'm not entirely sure about my approach. But, basically I do not feel that you can rely on sRGB mode for accurate color. I dropped the sRGB project once I realized that I was getting a good solution with the next generation of Foxfire.

If anyone has found a way to squeeze great color out of sRGB mode, I would be very interested in your approach.

--

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OP Tamlin_WSGF Forum Member • Posts: 83
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

Thanks Will!

That helped. I'm planning on having two different whitepoints and settings on each computer and preferably LUT calibrated. Spectraview profiler stores LUT and settings in their profiles, so its autoadjusted accordingly when changing profile. I like having control, so I needed to know if changes on one input affects the other input. Now I know.

Having a NEC employee that can give us answers for difficult questions is definitely a benifit. Travbomb did a good job at [H] in this regard saving us from a lot of fustrations. Too bad he doesn't work with NEC anymore.

Some side question regarding Spectraview 2:

I get a lot of PM's and questions about the 2690WUXi, the Spectraview profiler AND Spectraview 2 (not only in a forum I moderate, but several others as well). People have gone to the extent of registering in the forum I moderate just to ask me questions about 2690WUXi and Spectraview. Lut calibration seems to be a major selling point also for those (in EU) who only consider the multisync versions for the moment, but wants an upgrade path as in US. Before the knowledge of enableling this in the OSD/OSM, multisync Spectraview profiler users couldn't access the LUT calibration and EU users were blocked from buying Spectraview 2, since its restricted to US/Canada obviously. Now we all can upgrade our screens to Spectraview!

I've tested Spectraview profiler extensively, but not Spectraview 2 so I can't be much help there for our users unfortunately. I wonder about a couple of things:

1. Will there be a trial version of the Spectraview 2 as they have with the Spectraview profiler now currently? I want to try this out for our users.

2. Will Spectraview 2 include "combined hardware/software calibration (without monitor LUT)", "software calibration (GFX LUT)" and "profile only (no calibration)" as with Spectraview profiler on a later release (or do you have it now?)?

3. Spectraview profiler includes a measurement option of ambient light for some probes (not mine, though the original software supports it). Will Spectraview 2 support this as well on a later release (or do you have it now?)?

Will49 Regular Member • Posts: 225
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

The sRGB mode on the LCD2690 is really "sRGB emulation". The monitor tries to do its best to get the best overall match of sRGB, however in doing so there are tradeoffs.

Doing gamut mapping in a monitor to make it behave like it has a different (smaller) gamut than it actually has, requires very sophisticated 3D LUTs and transforms. Applying these transforms in the 2690 means that the LUTs are no longer available for use in calibrating the display with SpectraView.

If someone really needs to have an calibrated "true" sRGB display, I would recommend either going for the 2490, or using a standard LCD as a secondary display for proofing sRGB.

UCSB wrote:

My question: What is the story behind sRGB mode? It does not seem
very accurate to me. It can not be calibrated or profiled (to the
best of my knowledge) in Spectraview II. Am I missing something in
terms of being able to maximize the performance of sRGB mode? Are
their plans to integrate sRGB calibration/profiling into Spectraview
II?

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Will Hollingworth
Manager of OEM Product Design & Development Engineering
NEC Display Solutions of America, Inc.

Will49 Regular Member • Posts: 225
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

Thank you for your support of NEC and our displays.

Tamlin_WSGF wrote:

Before the
knowledge of enableling this in the OSD/OSM, multisync Spectraview
profiler users couldn't access the LUT calibration and EU users were
blocked from buying Spectraview 2, since its restricted to US/Canada
obviously. Now we all can upgrade our screens to Spectraview!

Please keep in mind that there is currently no official upgrade path from a MultiSync to a SpectraView display in Europe. NEC Europe takes a very dim view of people posting information on how to use the SpectraView Profiler software on non-SpectraView displays for "free". Personally I wish there was a legitimate way to upgrade.

I wonder about a couple of things:

1. Will there be a trial version of the Spectraview 2 as they have
with the Spectraview profiler now currently? I want to try this out
for our users.

At the moment we don't have a trial version. Also please keep in mind that SpectraView II is only officially for sale in the US and Canada, due to licensing agreements with NEC Europe.

2. Will Spectraview 2 include "combined hardware/software calibration
(without monitor LUT)", "software calibration (GFX LUT)" and "profile
only (no calibration)" as with Spectraview profiler on a later
release (or do you have it now?)?

It is possible to "profile only" if you want to, but it is rather a waste of the display's capabilities. You can profile any display.

A video card LUT calibration is being considered for a future version to calibrate non-SV monitors. Until now our priority has been to get the absolute best hardware calibration out of the displays.

3. SpectraView profiler includes a measurement option of ambient
light for some probes (not mine, though the original software
supports it). Will Spectraview 2 support this as well on a later
release (or do you have it now?)?

SpectraView II supports this from version 1.0.40 with the iOne Display V2.

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Will Hollingworth
Manager of OEM Product Design & Development Engineering
NEC Display Solutions of America, Inc.

OP Tamlin_WSGF Forum Member • Posts: 83
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

Thanks Will for the appreciation. I do it for the users though, not NEC. You made a good screen which I've tested extensively and found easy to recommend.

As for presenting the method of LUT calibrating EU screens, its not ment to be a "free" way, but a last sort solution since many wants to get the most out of their screens and one should think that NEC Europe wanted the same for their customers. The method itself is legal. Here is from NEC's own homepage:

14-days trial license is open for everyone and can be legally downloaded and used. Problem is that LUT calibration is greyed out on Multisync monitors. What my solution does, is to enable a function you bought with the screen and can activate legally. This makes the LUT calibration available at the same time. To continue using this program legally, you need to download another trial license giving you legally 14 new days. I haven't figured out where to buy it though, and have gotten many questions regarding where, so if you can help us out here with a link, many would appreciate that. I'll update my post with that link then. If it would break any law I don't know about, it will be removed imediately of course.
It CAN be used illegally, but so can kitchen knives...

I've known about this method a long time before I posted it, but had to check the legal issues first. Nothing in my method is illegal as far as I know. I know where to find keygens and keys for Spectraview 2, but have no intention of using or posting that information (not even give it by PM if someone gets that idea). I even notified BlindedByScience at [H] when someone posted a Spectraview 2 key in the 2690 thread. BlindedByScience removed it shortly after. I would have removed any post with Spectraview 2 key or keygenerator on WSGF. I'm not supporting piracy so that is told. What we are doing is not piracy though and like any other 14-days trial, its legal to use as one see fit (as long as its within EULA).

NEC Europe is probably looking angry at my post, but they have sold a lot of Multisyncs to users that wouldn't have bought Spectraview anyway because of this.

Instead of looking angry outwards, they should look inwards and maybe learn a little from USA. I like better NEC USA's approach about offering their customers something extra to get more out of their screens, then NEC Europe's method of blocking Multisync users to use Spectraview Profilers LUT calibration and at the same time prevent them from buying the Spectraview 2 upgrade. If at least EU customers could purchase Spectraview 2, then my post would never have seen the light of day! Many are searching the internet now to figure out where to buy Spectraview profiler, even though they don't "have to". The users who use my methods are honest and are standing with money in hand ready for NEC Europe to collect.

Thanks for answering my questions. It helps me giving answers myself.

I found the "profiling only" function useful for comparison purpouses.

The DDC/CI capable "combined hardware and software calibriation" was also useful in those cases where you didn't want to program lut.

The Software (GFX LUT) calibration was useful for the presets

I only wish that the ambient lightning would support more probes. You should support more probes with this for Spectraview 2 as well in next version.

Too bad there is no trial version of Spectraview 2 on the stairs yet.

There is one function I would find most useful for Spectraview profiler:

The NEC uses a lot of time to even out the colors and brightness. In addition, it turns off autoluminance (I have to turn it on first, wait, measure brightness, calibrate after the measured brightness and then turn it on again).

What would be good, is to turn on Autoluminance to desired settings, then just calibrate the screen without Spectraview profiler touching my brightness settings more then minor up/down for precision. There is no such option in spectraview profiler. Is there one in Spectraview 2?

UCSB
UCSB Contributing Member • Posts: 991
Re: 2690WUXi and LUTs (I wish Will from NEC would see this)

Thanks Will for the clear explanation. I love my 2690 & Spectraview software.
--

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fpessolano Senior Member • Posts: 1,131
I agree

I am one customer NEC lost because of the spectraview policy of NEC europe and put my money in an equivalent EIZO (which is actually eve cheaper than the spectraview) instead of opting for Tamlin approach (since I guess soon NEC Europe will come otu with a warranty void when LUT is used in the multisync).

I despite companies that take advantages of European customers in this way (differentiated offer and no 2490!).

Francesco

****************
webpage: http://www.thefoodtraveller.com/blog

Wouwie Regular Member • Posts: 105
Where to find the LUT calibration method

Hello,

I searched all evening to find the method to use LUTcalibration on my MultiSync 2690 WUXi with Spectraview.
I read about the method, but just can't find it.
Can you supply a link?

Thanks for your help,

Wouwie

UCSB
UCSB Contributing Member • Posts: 991
Re: Where to find the LUT calibration method

Wouwie wrote:

Hello,

I searched all evening to find the method to use LUTcalibration on my
MultiSync 2690 WUXi with Spectraview.
I read about the method, but just can't find it.
Can you supply a link?

Thanks for your help,

Wouwie

If you are a Spectraview II user, the software will handle the LUT hardware calibration. You do not need to do anything except click the calibrate button and follow the on screen instructions. There is a manual on the NEC site. Just look on the Spectraview II page.

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Wouwie Regular Member • Posts: 105
Re: Where to find the LUT calibration method

Thanks for the quick reply, but I've Spectraview Profiler 4.1.6. & a NEC Multisync LCD2690WUXi display.
So 'Hardware Calibration (monitos LUTs)' is greyed out.

Thanks,

Wouwie

UCSB
UCSB Contributing Member • Posts: 991
Re: Where to find the LUT calibration method

Wouwie wrote:

Thanks for the quick reply, but I've Spectraview Profiler 4.1.6. & a
NEC Multisync LCD2690WUXi display.
So 'Hardware Calibration (monitos LUTs)' is greyed out.

Thanks,

Wouwie

Read back through Tamlin's posts in this thread carefully and you will find your answer.

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Bill.

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Wouwie Regular Member • Posts: 105
Re: Where to find the LUT calibration method

It looks like a quiz.

But I still can't find the solution to activate LUT calibration in SpectraView Profiler on my MultiSync.

Can you please give me a small hint?

Thanks,

Wouwie

RJSPhotography Senior Member • Posts: 1,680
Re: Where to find the LUT calibration method

thanks

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UCSB
UCSB Contributing Member • Posts: 991
Re: Where to find the LUT calibration method

Wouwie wrote:

It looks like a quiz.

But I still can't find the solution to activate LUT calibration in
SpectraView Profiler on my MultiSync.

Can you please give me a small hint?

Thanks,

Wouwie

OK ... here is a hint: http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11427

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