Film versus DSLR dynamic range

Started Jul 24, 2007 | Discussions
PIXSurgeon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
I have, but...

Jay Turberville wrote:

or respond to the contrary evidence I
supplied. I should have known better after reading that first post
of yours.

...You have not anything , except a crumy, poorly-rendered, Stouffer step-wedge that is way over the limits of the cam (e.g. MAGENTA-cast on last stop of highlights).

Not only that, you seem to have this bizarre fixation to support your arguments with an evidenceless-counter-argument and totally contrary to what has been CLAIMED here.

And, on top of that, when I ask you to go ahead and repeat one (1) of the same shot/image (with some +2.5EV recoveries on them), you come back with... a step wedge? WTF???

A total F-waste of time, by any means, form or shape.

...

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Lictor Regular Member • Posts: 346
Re: Nail the exposure for both areas....and do this...

RomanJohnston wrote:

http://www.nwpphotoforum.com/ubbthreads/information/php/2007_Articles/rjohnston/roman2.php

Yeah...the tutorial is using one RAW shot...but works the same for
bracketed exposures.

Yes, I know about HDR. Though doing it from a single RAW file is not really the orthodox way to do it - you're not gaining any DR by doing it, you just get a new way to map the RAW DR to the 8 bits of the JPEG. Another way would be to simply use d-lighting, since it works more or less the same way.

Proper HDR, with bracketed exposures (BTW, would be nice of Nikon to allow bracking with steps above 1IL! 2-3 IL would be nice), works very nicely indeed. I have been using it for some photos, and if you don't overdo it, the results are pretty natural. However, it is only of limited use :

  • cannot work with people who are not willing to remain totally motionnel for a couple of seconds. Any tiny movement will result in softness or weird artefacts. And if your outdoor, the background becomes a problem, because it too can move. If you're in a studio, HDR is worthless, since you're in full control of the DR anyway...

  • even with landscape you have some problems. For instance, the wind will make everything move : water, clouds, trees.... Likewise, any human being, animal or car becomes your ennemy.

HDR is a great tool, especially since it was not intended for photography at first. But it can't replace a natural high dynamic range media...

J Mankila
J Mankila Veteran Member • Posts: 4,234
Quite funny... :) (nt)

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RomanJohnston
RomanJohnston Forum Pro • Posts: 18,827
Re: Nail the exposure for both areas....and do this...

Um....did you read the part about the fact I KNOW my tutorial isnt using bracketed shots...but works the same for bracketd shots?

And it isn't HDR...cant stand HDR.

And bracketed blended (NON HDR) exposures do work most of the time with moving subjects as your blending the highlights through to a dark shot...as long as the subject isnt moving along those transition lines...your golden.

Roman

Lictor wrote:

RomanJohnston wrote:

http://www.nwpphotoforum.com/ubbthreads/information/php/2007_Articles/rjohnston/roman2.php

Yeah...the tutorial is using one RAW shot...but works the same for
bracketed exposures.

Yes, I know about HDR. Though doing it from a single RAW file is not
really the orthodox way to do it - you're not gaining any DR by doing
it, you just get a new way to map the RAW DR to the 8 bits of the
JPEG. Another way would be to simply use d-lighting, since it works
more or less the same way.

Proper HDR, with bracketed exposures (BTW, would be nice of Nikon to
allow bracking with steps above 1IL! 2-3 IL would be nice), works
very nicely indeed. I have been using it for some photos, and if you
don't overdo it, the results are pretty natural. However, it is only
of limited use :

  • cannot work with people who are not willing to remain totally

motionnel for a couple of seconds. Any tiny movement will result in
softness or weird artefacts. And if your outdoor, the background
becomes a problem, because it too can move. If you're in a studio,
HDR is worthless, since you're in full control of the DR anyway...

  • even with landscape you have some problems. For instance, the wind

will make everything move : water, clouds, trees.... Likewise, any
human being, animal or car becomes your ennemy.

HDR is a great tool, especially since it was not intended for
photography at first. But it can't replace a natural high dynamic
range media...

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Slough Senior Member • Posts: 1,809
Re: Nail the exposure for both areas....and do this...

Lictor wrote:

RomanJohnston wrote:

http://www.nwpphotoforum.com/ubbthreads/information/php/2007_Articles/rjohnston/roman2.php

Yeah...the tutorial is using one RAW shot...but works the same for
bracketed exposures.

Yes, I know about HDR. Though doing it from a single RAW file is not
really the orthodox way to do it - you're not gaining any DR by doing
it, you just get a new way to map the RAW DR to the 8 bits of the
JPEG. Another way would be to simply use d-lighting, since it works
more or less the same way.

Exactly, and if you try it you will see that it can be very useful. It is rather like contrast masking but gives better results IMO.

PIXSurgeon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
To satisfy your criteria...

Jay Turberville wrote:

There is some slight non-linearity in real life in the darkest
shadows which is probably due to lens flare. That probably explains
why we can actually reach and even exceed a tiny bit the theoretical
DR limits. You can see that slight non-linearity in this Imatest
graph. It is interesting on its own merits, but I don't think it has
much relevance to practical photography with most cameras. Note the
otherwise linear response.

...and to demonstrate the value/importance of the equipment, here you go (notice the improved non-linearity at the top-bottom, and, most importantly, the MASSIVELY improved signal-to-noise ratios acrross the tonal band, when compared to yours, which, in all fairness, I do not know WTF you got such limited ratios):

http://www.pbase.com/feharmat/image/45161473/original

(and the above is already after TRC's applied, and with basically NO noise-reduction!) NO wonder, now, what you are complaining about "shadows"... DUDE, you need A NEW CAM! 8-))

And the pretty much the very same processing used (above) to generate these sample (trivial) images, for example:

http://www.pbase.com/feharmat/image/44661287/original
http://www.pbase.com/feharmat/image/61209434/original
http://www.pbase.com/feharmat/image/41090981/original

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Benedict Slotte Senior Member • Posts: 1,165
You are right, Jay

Jay Turberville wrote:

.. you are probably right. I kind of figured that based on your
original response to this thread.

...

My apologies for committing the sin of actually thinking you might
support your assertions with evidence (like some resource to show
what the luminance range of a candle flame is or spot meter values
for the images you showed) or respond to the contrary evidence I
supplied. I should have known better after reading that first post
of yours.

You are right. PixSurgeon just has this obsession to desperately and bombastically keep stomping other people's claims to death until nothing but a pool of blood on the ground remains, as soon as he finds the slightest reason to do so. In the debate that follows he can then play genius and superciliously degrade everyone else. And if the other person actually believes he is a real genius (which I definitely do not) he gets his much-yearned-for ego boost.

Let's see how long it takes (my guess is 1-3 more posts) until he AGAIN (yawn...) posts a link to that laughing man, or donkey, audio file.

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Turku, Finland
http://bslotte.smugmug.com
See profile for equipment

PIXSurgeon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
LoOoOoL!!!

Benedict Slotte wrote:

You are right. PixSurgeon just has this obsession to desperately and
bombastically keep stomping other people's claims to death until
nothing but a pool of blood on the ground remains, as soon as he
finds the slightest reason to do so.

...Now, THAT was funny, Benedict... Putting aside the PIXman-custome... boy! I did not know you have been feeling like that, since our last "exchange"... 8-)))

In any case, you have NO IDEA how much this one got me cuckling...

Now, back to my custome, and let's see how can keep up with the "bloody" pressure!

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LilKnytt Veteran Member • Posts: 7,213
I'm with Steve & Roman here...... Re: Back in the "old days" . . .

Back in the old days (27 years ago) I was a VERY VERY VERY poor film student living on about $ 10.00 @ week ( & that included feeding my small dog) I could only afford slide film & getting it developed. Prints only on rare occasions. I had to be extremely frugal in all I was doing. No money for anything extra.

So I made the most out of every shot I took. I never had the finances to "play" with settings etc the way I'm doing these days. Now I can experiment & try things until the CF card is full - & then I just pop in another one. Since January I've shot over 6000 shots. These include tests of a million kinds. I can go into the camera & retrieve settings & delete in camera etc etc. With my headaches & short term memory loss due to them - digital is a Heaven sent. All the information is there for me.

Then add the fact that I can go in on the computer & try to save a special shot which didn't turn out exactly the way I planned it & had no way of doing over.

Like I tell my husband "I'm having too much fun!" & yes Roman - that's even when I'm having a breakdown over my channels or how the camera drives me nuts at times.

Lil
--

A very humble beginning of a gallery, showing my progression with help from caring friends especially on DPR, can be visited by friends & family at

http://lilknytt.zenfolio.com/

Remember - - - it's humble, very humble

Tony Terranova Regular Member • Posts: 271
What's the EV range?

Rather than ASSume anything, I would expect that you would have an EV range to quote us for that candle image.

Anything less is simply late 19 century poetry...

PIXSurgeon wrote:

Jay Turberville wrote:

your flame image is not a good demonstration of any
particular dynamic range capability.

...We do not have anything else to discuss.

..

PIXSurgeon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
Does not your...

Tony Terranova wrote:

Rather than ASSume anything, I would expect that you would have an EV
range to quote us for that candle image.

...ASStounding imagination allows you to estimate (based on real experience) what kind of dinamic range you will need to go from close to pitch-black to the burning FLAME on the candle, until you see almost entirely the burning-cord, along with the flame structure)?

Is the example simple enough for your ASStounding skills to repeat at home and ASSess for yourself the required DR?

8-))

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Tony Terranova Regular Member • Posts: 271
Just what I thought...

A poet, and a hypocritical one at that.

PIXSurgeon wrote:

Tony Terranova wrote:

Rather than ASSume anything, I would expect that you would have an EV
range to quote us for that candle image.

...ASStounding imagination allows you to estimate (based on real
experience) what kind of dinamic range you will need to go from close
to pitch-black to the burning FLAME on the candle, until you see
almost entirely the burning-cord, along with the flame structure)?

Is the example simple enough for your ASStounding skills to repeat at
home and ASSess for yourself the required DR?

8-))

The Davinator
The Davinator Forum Pro • Posts: 22,234
Re: Just what I thought...

Tony Terranova wrote:

A poet, and a hypocritical one at that.

That is why there is no point responding to him. He doesn't understand. Ask him to produce a film test with Tri-X and different developer solutions.....he can't, because he has never done one himself......but he KNOWS how it'd turn out anyway. LOL.

PIXSurgeon wrote:

Tony Terranova wrote:

Rather than ASSume anything, I would expect that you would have an EV
range to quote us for that candle image.

...ASStounding imagination allows you to estimate (based on real
experience) what kind of dinamic range you will need to go from close
to pitch-black to the burning FLAME on the candle, until you see
almost entirely the burning-cord, along with the flame structure)?

Is the example simple enough for your ASStounding skills to repeat at
home and ASSess for yourself the required DR?

8-))

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PIXSurgeon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
I have not detected...

Tony Terranova wrote:

A poet, and a hypocritical one at that.

...a single thought from you, in anything I have read so far... just babbling ... and, on top of that, NOT A SINGLE F-image* , yet! Not from Dave, not from you...

The longer it goes, the stronger and stronger the case...

WHO are the poetry writers, here? Because so far, I have shown paintings... and you have shown NOTHING.

8-)

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Tony Terranova Regular Member • Posts: 271
Beautiful chamber music..

Until I see an EV range for that candle shot, then it is simply poetry. Shall I accompany with my harpiscord? What a combo, my chamber music with your rhythmic verses. How quaint.

PIXSurgeon wrote:

Tony Terranova wrote:

A poet, and a hypocritical one at that.

...a single thought from you, in anything I have read so far...
just babbling ... and, on top of that, NOT A SINGLE F-image* ,
yet! Not from Dave, not from you...

The longer it goes, the stronger and stronger the case...

WHO are the poetry writers, here? Because so far, I have shown
paintings... and you have shown NOTHING.

8-)

Benedict Slotte Senior Member • Posts: 1,165
Split personality?

PIXSurgeon wrote:

...Now, THAT was funny, Benedict... Putting aside the
PIXman-custome... boy! I did not know you have been feeling like
that, since our last "exchange"... 8-)))

Not really. I don't feel much myself, not really having had my own claims stomped to death like some others (you couldn't do that, no matter how hard you try, you see). But looking at this silly stuff as a bystander...

Costume? Sounds like split personality to me... oh no. Which one is Pix and which one is Surgeon? Surgeon, please give me back my Pix costume - or the other way round? Wait... it must be the other way. Pix is the real Ferenc, and PixSurgeon is Ferenc with the Surgeon costume on.

Now, back to my custome, and let's see how can keep up with the
"bloody" pressure!

Watch out! If you get a high blood pressure in the process, you might soon have a reddish nose, which together with the costume you mentioned above will make you look like a clown.

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http://bslotte.smugmug.com
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PIXSurgeon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
Don't waste your time...

Tony Terranova wrote:

Shall I accompany with my harpiscord? What a combo, my
chamber music with your rhythmic verses. How quaint.

...with instruments you do not even know how to play... Just light up a F-candle, WATCH the flame, and pray to God for some enlightment... just to discover that you will need around 10 to 11 EVs to capture the whole thing, appropriately.

Only then, you will get the answer you are seeking...

8-)

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Ed Leys Veteran Member • Posts: 4,948
a point...

Tony Terranova wrote:

Until I see an EV range for that candle shot, then it is simply
poetry. Shall I accompany with my harpiscord? What a combo, my
chamber music with your rhythmic verses. How quaint.

Tony, do not defame poetry so...

his stutters to not ring the

sterling rime

do not delight the ear, nor bring whispered insight

his words are are a spurious child of shout and spittle

and not the one child with hair merely matted,

no,

the one misshapen into a stillborn grotesquery,

a mockery

of anything permitted to breath a benign and living breath

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PIXSurgeon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
But that is precisely the point!

Benedict Slotte wrote:

Not really. I don't feel much myself, not really having had my own
claims stomped to death like some others (you couldn't do that, no
matter how hard you try, you see). But looking at this silly stuff as
a bystander...

Oh, C'mon, Benedict! You came back and stepped in because you are HURT! Our last exchange was not rosy... nor you should expect any rosiness from me, indeed. That is soooo foreign (or "gheyish") to the basic traits of the PIXsurgeon character, indeed

Wait... it must be the other way.
Pix is the real Ferenc, and PixSurgeon is Ferenc with the Surgeon
costume on.

...Isn't it beautiful? How come a cyber-character can create so much havoc on your perception of reality? Now, that's a real medical case, indeed!

Watch out! If you get a high blood pressure in the process, you might
soon have a reddish nose, which together with the costume you
mentioned above will make you look like a clown.

Benedict, Benedict... What am I going to do with you, my friend?

Let me ask you: was it you, looking at yourself in the mirror, right before going to work what inspired you write such poorly-articulated joke? Is that what happens to you when the PIXSurgeon fries your nerves? I would take your "pool of blood" analogy, any time, over this made-by-a-toddler joke.

8-)

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PIXSurgeon Veteran Member • Posts: 4,009
Just a quick question...

Ed Leys wrote:

Tony, do not defame poetry so...

Is this your image?:

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